Ambient Treatmetns: learning curves and possibilities with effects processors

[Jacklynn]

Greetings,

I have lots of questions and I would love to hear some of your thoughts and get a good discussion going here on how people use and learn to use and deal with the massive learing curves and intimidating possibilities and options that some of the more powerful effects processors can bog you down with.

I wanted to ask my fellow ambient music treatment enthusiasts here about their approaches to learning new effects processing tools like the Lexicon PCM81 which offers a staggering number of possibilities?

Early digital effects devices like the Lexicon Prime Time M93 or AMS DMX 15-80s or EMT 250 all did about two or three things. A delay of varying time, possibly the ability to modulate the delay time with a LFO (selectable waveforms) and if you were really lucky, a short sample/loop function with the ability to capture a moment of audio and then slow it down or speed it up by increasing or decreasing the delay time. That was the extent of what early digital effects would do. You could learn them inside and out quickly and use them to their fullest potential within weeks.

Later things like the H3000 and PCM70/80 came along. These devices offered several algorithms, each one being equivalent to what was previously an entire effects processor but these devices are more like several effects processors within a single rack unit. This has made it impossible for me to learn any of these types of effects processors to their fullest potential which is a shame. Some of the algorithms would require you to have a degree and have done an additional 20 years of research in physics, sound engineering, acoustical design and more.

When using multi effects units like the Lexicon PCM 81, Eventide Eclipse to create treatments that rely on chaining together several devices, what has been your approach to moving through the possiblilties and options with devices like these which can be very intimidating and arriveing at a place where you are 100% happy with the result?

Do you find a few algorithms that are structured in ways that are useful to you and just stick to those and try to master those algorithms and ignore the rest or do you tend on exploring all of them fully and get nothing done in terms of musical output while getting lost in screwdriver mode?

Do you choose certain devices based on what they do best in your own opinon or do you have the idea of how you want the sound to go and use any device you have to do the job regardless of what it is supposed to be the best at?

For example: a PCM70 does great long thick reverbs. Most people know this. It also does stereo multitap delays and a lot of modulation effects like chorusing but not too many engineers use it for these applications, they tend to use Eventides which do the stereo multitap delays and modulations extremely well.

Would you be one to use these respective devices for what they do best or would you use a Lexicon PCM70 or 81 to do delays and use the Eventide to do reverb?

When you go for something like the Lexicon, do you know in the back of your mind that you are after that character of reverb that it is known for or do you try to tap into every facet of what a processor like the PCM81 can do even though a different device may do everything except for the reverb better than the PCM81?

I have been using my PCM81 for the last three years and I just can't seem to ever get to a point where I feel comfortable using it.

I can get a lot of great sounds out of it but I always know in the back of my head that there is a better sound down the road just two minutes from now.

I would like to be at a point where I am aware of the scope of it's possiblilities, it's strengths, it's weaknesses. I would like to be the master of a few tools. The PCM81 is one of the things I would like to have a rapport with but it just seems awfully deep. The algorithms alone are quite complex but the modulation patching of parameters makes it seem impossible and totally intimidating. I know how to operate the thing and I know how to manipulate all of the parameters but I still don't feel like I know what I am doing when making effects out of these really complex algorithms with so many parameters. Are these devices really intended for people making music because I get the impression that I could spend the rest of my life getting comfortable with and good at using the Lexicon PCM 81.

I do not like many of the factory presets and I prefer to build my own effects and i do really enjoy the way this unit sounds so I do not want to give up on it or my Eventide which gives me the same stress.

How far into it have you gone? Any suggestions for learning in a productive manner how to use these devices and not go completley bananas?

[echo unit]

Yowsers!

I know how you feel. I get intimidated every time I power up my racks of effects.
I guess that anxiety is part of the excitment of not knowing exactly where you are going or where you are going to end up when you start developing your own treatments and editing algorithms to really tailor them to suit what you are hearing or whar you want to hear inside your head.

I can certainly understand the distress you are having. I think many of us feels this way when we start learning a new toy. The PCM 81 certainly is a beast. I have one myself and have to say that it can be just as treacherous to learn as the Eventides are. I would say that you may just want to set small goals for yourself and try to reach those within a reasonable time frame. Perhaps just dedicate a bit of your life to the learning process without really worring about making any music. Spend some time each day maybe working with a single algorithm and go in there and tweak around with all the parameters and try to really understand what they can do in the most extreme settings and the most subtle ones too. Maybe more then one day per algorithm is necessary too but if you really want to have a "rapport" with the device then you have to live inside of it for a while and dedicate some serious time to programming it and getting around in there.

Also go into the factory presets that use the algorithm that you are currently learing to use and look at all of the parameters and the patching of parameters to internal controllers to see the full picture of what Lexicon did with that algorithm. This will give you a good idea of what the design engineers at Lexicon were intending the algorithm to be capable of doing and what sorts of effects are possible at the level that these designers took it when they developed the technology for this effects processor.

One you have done these steps, i believe that your mind will expand, the doors will open and ideas of how tto make your own effects with that device in ways that really get you going will be ready and waiting for you to tap into these vistas.

Good luck and take it one day at a time. try not to get too stressed out.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Jacklynn

How far into it have you gone? Any suggestions for learning in a productive manner how to use these devices and not go completley bananas?

My approach has always been find out what it does best and what it doesn't do well find something else and use them together.

How does one go about it?

Well how you stated, look through the patches with some intention.

Some are great at modulating effects, some are great at doing short reverbs,others do longer better, others do discrete delays, others do warm delays...basically you get the picture.

I own over 40 effect processors(and still growing).

Some do one thing well and others do multiple thing well.

If i can't find one that could do something i hear in my head i use 2 and layer them, sometimes 3,4 and so on.

Sometimes its a layer of patches from the same unit.

Sometimes its one unit into another.


The best ambient textures to me are usually a combination.


By the way i only liked a handful of patches on the PCM 81(the thunder clap was my favorite).


Its not in my rack though(got rid of it years ago).

[Jacklynn]

Thank you for the replies guys! You are so sweet.

This helps me to relax a bit.


Thrillfactor,

I am curious to know why you got rid of the PCM81 and how you found getting around this unit and programming it? What did you think it did the best in terms of different kinds of effects...reverbs, modulations, pitch shift? The Lexicon Reverb is known to be a favorite. Did this unit not deliver?

I also wondered, what do you use in your setup that would be an alternative to the PCM81 that you think is better? What single space Lexicon effects processor(s) do you have and think are the best of all the ones they have made? Is there a processor that you got that made you say hey.....this is like the PCM 81 but better and made you ditch it? What exactly made you ditch the PCM81 and at what point did you realize that it was going out of your studio and that something else would replace it?

What effects processors do you currently have, use and like?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Jacklynn

Thank you for the replies guys! You are so sweet.

This helps me to relax a bit.


Thrillfactor,

I am curious to know why you got rid of the PCM81 and how you found getting around this unit and programming it? What did you think it did the best in terms of different kinds of effects...reverbs, modulations, pitch shift? The Lexicon Reverb is known to be a favorite. Did this unit not deliver?

It had no depth or mojo to the effects to me.

A little bright and thin for my taste(i thought the PCM 91 was worse).

Especially the chorusing effects.

The reverbs are ok.

The delay effects are ok as well.

If it can't do any of the above great than its no use to me.

I could program it pretty easily actually.

As long as i knew what i wanted.

Yeah it has tons of menus but you get used to it.

Originally Posted by Jacklynn

I also wondered, what do you use in your setup that would be an alternative to the PCM81 that you think is better? What single space Lexicon effects processor(s) do you have and think are the best of all the ones they have made? Is there a processor that you got that made you say hey.....this is like the PCM 81 but better and made you ditch it? What exactly made you ditch the PCM81 and at what point did you realize that it was going out of your studio and that something else would replace it?

The best and most useful Lexicon processors to me are still the 480L and the PCM 42 delays.

The 224XL and PCM 70 are following up the rear.

Is there some thing comparable to the PCM 81 that i ditched it for that's better?

Heck yeah the Sony DPSV77.

I use that thing in all my mixes.

Its the best swiss army knife processor out there.

To me its more useful and blends better in the mix.

It has nice choruses,flange,plates and combinations.

And where it falls short i have 2 pairs each of R7's,M7's and D7's that take the Sony sound to another level(more distinctive sound that really stands out).


I didn't mention an Eventide as a replacement because its in its own class(pitch shifting effects).

Originally Posted by Jacklynn

What effects processors do you currently have, use and like?

Like i said i think i have over 40 and this is not even counting the effects that aren't working.

What i like and use a lot i have pairs of.


Lets just say if the 80's sound makes a comeback i will be ready.

[monkeyspanker]

Jacklynn... Did you say bananas!

[Jacklynn]

Do you think that this is a good set of processors for studio effects treatmetns?

TC2290
PCM70
PCM81
Eventide Eclipse
Sansamp PSA-1

What would you change if you had my setup and what would you leave the same? I would like to have no more than 5 processors that do effects because I think that 5 is enough and more then that may be too intimidating.

[drosophila]

Originally Posted by Jacklynn

Eventide Eclipse

I'm rather curious about this one myself. Space is kind of a commodity around here, so if it's anywhere near the H3000 stuff, i'd love to give the Eclipse a shot.

[Jacklynn]

The Eclipse does a lot of stuff. Pitch shifting is the best of the effects it does. Ther reverbs are great if blended with Lexicon but a bit thin and transparent on their own. The distortion algorithms suck. There are some goofy effects in there like sample and hold stuff which sounds really stupid no matter how you look at it.

I would love to know again if my above set of processors is a versatile set of tools or if there is something lacking that needs to be addressed to make things a bit more wonderful. Any suggestions of effects units that are must have for ambient music and would add to my set up would be greatly appreciated.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Jacklynn

I would love to know again if my above set of processors is a versatile set of tools or if there is something lacking that needs to be addressed to make things a bit more wonderful. Any suggestions of effects units that are must have for ambient music and would add to my set up would be greatly appreciated.

I would say what you have chosen is a good starting point.

Although I do prefer processors that are easy to program(large interfaces and remotes) personally.

Especially when i am trying to create new textures.

The boxes become like musical instruments so i want them to react that way.

Also you can look at some cool synth programs like Reaktor that have nice tools for creating textures and manipulating sounds as well.

Reaktor is great because...well you got to try it out for yourself to understand.

What else could you add?

On the cheap the Lexicon Vortex and the Korg AMR8000 have some interesting textures.

The Vortex is cool cause you can mess with it in real time as you play stuff.

The Korg AMR has some patches that you won't find any where.

For a cheap delay...the Symetrix 606.

Not the easiest to program, but soundwise its one of my secret weapons.

There is alot of power and really nice sound in this one rack space box.

For the expensive stuff...there are tons of really good processors.

Oh before i forget always have something on record.

Basically record whatever you do.

Some of the best ideas come out of long improvised texture sessions(well for me anyway).

And Layer.

And Layer.

And layer effects again.

This is the secret to really complex timbres.

[u b k]

i didn't realize there was somebody else out there who doesn't dig the lex 80/90 boxes.

to my ears, they sound like all the things about the 1980's i don't want to remember, and they have a way of not sitting down low in a mix where i generally like my fx. by the time i push them enough to get their feel, they're drawing attention to themselves, and i don't like the chill everything gets as a result.

as much as i'm a staunch otb guy when it comes to eq, comp, and summing, most of my effects are coming from inside the box these days and i couldn't be happier. between reaktor and pluggo almost any bizarre effect i can dream up, and even more that i can't, are within my grasp. and i love the way chaos comes into play when tweaking their interfaces.

otb, i like a tube 140, all things eventide, lex 42 and 480, and the tc 6000. my gut tells me i'd love the ksp-8 if i tried it, but i don't want to because then i'd need to buy it.

itb, on the more conventional tip, i love powercore's classicverb, logic's a-verb (this thing does small and medium ambiences no other box on the planet can do), logic's tape delay, and the uad delay and phaser, two very analog sounding plugs.

people swear by convolution verbs, but i can't ever get them to do what i need. then again, people also swear by waves plugs and itb summing, so clearly the problem is on my end.

in any case, explore your units, let randomness be your companion, and understand that it's okay to spend an hour or two trying things out and ending up with nothing useful at the end. your mind will learn things for the next session, and doing the work and facing the fear is empowering to your artistic child, whereas holding back in any form is draining.

good luck!


gregoire
del ubik

[drosophila]

Originally Posted by Jacklynn

The Eclipse does a lot of stuff. Pitch shifting is the best of the effects it does. Ther reverbs are great if blended with Lexicon but a bit thin and transparent on their own. The distortion algorithms suck. There are some goofy effects in there like sample and hold stuff which sounds really stupid no matter how you look at it.

I was hoping for some combo of spatializer/lush reverb stuff, but this may not be the way to go for that. In any case, thanks for the info!

[Radian]

Alot of the effects boxes are confusing - it can be daunting...

Check out the video interview halfway down in the "Audio" section for Don Verbrilli - (his music is amazing)... he talks about the creative process...

http://www.upstairsrecordings.com

I totally agree that alot of the best creative expression is "discernment" - recognizing when u hear something cool and chasing it .. to jump in, be open to it... and commit to the process...

R

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Jacklynn

The Eclipse does a lot of stuff... The reverbs are great if blended with Lexicon but a bit thin and transparent on their own.

i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss those eventide verbs. they're grainy and white compared to a big lex, but they're often just the ticket when you need to push a synth to the back without washing it out.


gregoire
del ubik

[Mario-C.]

I love those eventide reverbs ... the variations you can get with the "tedium" parameters are endless, you can tweak predelays in samples and actually hear the sound change, are there any other processors that go that deep ?

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Jacklynn

Any suggestions for learning in a productive manner how to use these devices and not go completley bananas?

I usually do two things. One is to just set up some play time and get random with it to see what happens and what I can discover. With the TC 6000 there were a couple of parameters that I had never heard of.

The other thing is to just try to master one small piece early on - make that a baseline or reference point and then slowly expand from there.

There's not much you can do to accelerate the curve, jsut make yourself more comfortable while going through the process.

[Slipperman]

Originally Posted by u b i k

....logic's a-verb (this thing does small and medium ambiences no other box on the planet can do), logic's tape delay, and the uad delay and phaser, two very analog sounding plugs.

people swear by convolution verbs, but i can't ever get them to do what i need. then again, people also swear by waves plugs and itb summing, so clearly the problem is on my end.

LMAO.

I too use the dreaded Logic a-verb and tape delay with regularity.

Have you waded thru Space Designer much?

I just did a record with more time-domain than I have used in a decade... Maybe ever.

Used the SD all over it. Hadta keep freezing/unfreezing tracks as the machine was croaking every 10 bars.

I also got to dredge out a bunch of crap I haven't used in ages.

Eventide FL-201, Bel BD-80, Publison Infernal 90, Lex 200, 224x, PCM41, 42 and 60, Sony M7 and F7, PCM41 and 42, 2 Cooper Time Cubes, SRV2000 and 330... I dunno... whole bunch of other bizarre junk from back in de day... Had about 40-50 returns of time domain on the small faders. Bedlam.

Great fun really...

My assistant was less enamored of the process, as we had to whip it all down to finish something else and then(of course), got the call for a recall mix for some forgotten sundry parts and minor tweakage on 3 songs.

PAGES and PAGES of recall sheets and desk recalls later...

I'm remembering why I started doing the 'dry as a bone' thing about 1995.

HOHOHO.

Best regards,

SM.