Best Mic for a Don Henley type voice ?

[David R.]

Wish I remember who it was, but someone a long time ago (in a galaxy that looked much like this one) came up with this line - "Patsy Cline would still sound like Patsy Cline if she sang through a '57.

I bet Don Henley would sound like himself no matter what mic he used. It's not the mic, it's the singer.

You could spend 2k on a mic, but you might not need to.

Nothing specific to reccommend, just trying to save you a few pesos.

Happy hunting.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by David R.

Wish I remember who it was, but someone a long time ago (in a galaxy that looked much like this one) came up with this line - "Patsy Cline would still sound like Patsy Cline if she sang through a '57.

I bet Don Henley would sound like himself no matter what mic he used. It's not the mic, it's the singer.

You could spend 2k on a mic, but you might not need to.

Nothing specific to reccommend, just trying to save you a few pesos.

Happy hunting.

I agree 100%, but....I still want my voice to sound as good as possible !

[dreamsongs]

What is the major difference between a U67 and a U87 ?

[Matt Grondin]

67's are tube, 87's are not. They both have the same capsule. 67's cost approx. $2500 more and will require much more maintence, if you're lucky enough to find a really good one. Most will agree that a 67 sounds better, but you can get good sounds with an 87, and I'm especially eager to hear my Klaus Heyne modified version.

[popmann]

Well...the new 87s and 67s have the same cap...maybe it's just the pin out, but the ones 67-86 do have a different named cap. You can flip the underside says K87...the new ones and 67s say K67. Maybe Klaus or Stayne want to field that...is it just the pinout that changed?

As far as difference in sound...it's there...and no, I wouldn't wholely say the 67 is "better"...it certainly isn't on my voice. Not on my acoustic. I won't pretend to describe the difference with words...but, suffice to say that the Innertube mod, IMO, takes the 87's sound and adds every "good" quality of the 67....but none of the bad.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by dobby12

67's are tube, 87's are not. They both have the same capsule. 67's cost approx. $3500 more and will require much more maintence,.

A used 67 should be about $1500 more than a used 87.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by dobby12

67's are tube, 87's are not. They both have the same capsule. 67's cost approx. $3500 more and will require much more maintence, if you're lucky enough to find a really good one. Most will agree that a 67 sounds better, but you can get good sounds with an 87, and I'm especially eager to hear my Klaus Heyne modified version.

Dobby,

Sure the 87's are not tube ?...they're not TLM type, what are they then ?

[Matt Grondin]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

A used 67 should be about $1500 more than a used 87.

I meant to say $2500, sorry. Shit homie, I wanna start buying mics from where you're getting them from Used 87's cost a little under $2000 from what I've seen. Used 67's run about $4-5000, so you do the math.

[Matt Grondin]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

Dobby,

Sure the 87's are not tube ?...they're not TLM type, what are they then ?

87's do not have tubes in them... hence, the Innertube mod which adds a tube to the circuit, among other things. It's supposed to be pretty cool. 87's run off phantom power like all non-tube condensers.

[dreamsongs]

I spent a fair amount of time the other night on the net looking around...

I found 2 NEW U87ai's...one for $1,975 and another for $2,150. No shock mount...

[Matt Grondin]

Do some research on the Klaus Heyne mod... it is $1600 more, but it's supposed to be amazing. HOWEVER, I know Klaus is not a fan of spewing out hearsay and third party information, so you will just have to wait until I get mine before I will attest to it's sound qualities. I'm pretty sure it's going to be sweet though.

[Matt Grondin]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

I spent a fair amount of time the other night on the net looking around...

I found 2 NEW U87ai's...one for $1,975 and another for $2,150. No shock mount...

Well, most dealers are selling new 87's for around $2600-2800 so I'd be interested to know where you found that.

[popmann]

Sure the 87's are not tube ?...they're not TLM type, what are they then ?

They have transformer outputs. "TLM" is "Transformerless...something".

On the price search...NEW U87s do NOT sound like ones made pre86. They're not utter crap, but they're far overpriced. Somebody's got 3 old ones in the classifieds now for $1600/ea.

If you buy a new one, you (IMO) HAVE to have it modded. The old ones sound fine in their stock state. While maybe not the best, smoothest mic ever, they work very well on a lot of things.

If Stayne or Klaus is still reading...I'm really interested in the cap question. Did they change more than the pinout in 1986? They certainly mark them K67 instead of K87 now...Neumann says it's "always been the same capsule"...but, they have a vested interest in saying that. They're not saying, "And we F'd up the amp design sometime around 1986." either...

[kats]

Re: U87 price, make sure you compare apples to apples IE Shockmount or no shockmount - those things are expensive...like $350 or something.

Re: Old vs new '87s - I thought the only major difference was the increase in voltage to the capsule on the A's.... from 45 to 60 or something like that.

[dreamsongs]

OK...One place is B & H Photo, NY.

Go to website, go to mics and find U87. Then click on - send e-mail for ultra low price - something like that... and receive e-mail immediately.

Do that and let me know what price they quote you...B&H was going between 2.1k and 2.2k.

Don't buy them all though, and save one for me...

[dreamsongs]

I just checked my e-mail...it's $2,099...

Let me know what you guys get...

[popmann]

Is that with the shock? I'm pretty much sure you can find $1900+change with just the stand mount...

Re: Old vs new '87s - I thought the only major difference was the increase in voltage to the capsule on the A's.... from 45 to 60 or something like that.

I don't know what the "technical" change is other than the the pinout to the cap and something to improve the SNR of the amp...and removal of the battery compartment.

But, the end result is a very different sounding mic, IMO.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by dobby12

I meant to say $2500, sorry. Shit homie, I wanna start buying mics from where you're getting them from Used 87's cost a little under $2000 from what I've seen. Used 67's run about $4-5000, so you do the math.

They've gone up then. I've seen them selling for $3500 not too long ago.

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by popmann

...I'm really interested in the capsule question:
Did [Neumann] change more than the pinout in 1986?
They certainly mark them K67 instead of K87 now...Neumann says it's "always been the same capsule"...but, they have a vested interest in saying that. They're not saying, "And we F'd up the amp design sometime around 1986." either...

This issue has been discussed on several forums, including the Neumann forum,
Gearslutz, and mine. Here are the facts, as I still see them:

1. K87 (the capsule for the U87 before the "A" was introduced, in 1986) and K870 (the U87A capsule, which is also the replacement capsule for the U67, M269 and SM69, both FET and tube) are principally identical in their mechanical, dimensional and acoustic properties.

The difference is that in the old K87 the two backplates were isolated from each other by means of a plastic spacer and plastic tubing around the four backplate mounting screws.
The identially dimensioned spacer in the K870 is made of aluminum, and the mounting screws are without tubing. The rest is absolutely identical. With other words, you could use both capsules interchangeably as long as you use the right spacer and isolation tubing for the respective mic model.

I said that both capsules are "principally" identical. By that I mean that despite the consistent design through the years Neumann has made subtle changes in the execution of the capsules (too much to get into here, but search the fora) which affect the sound, and, in one instance, the longevity of the capsule.

But it is utter myth, in my opinion, that "older" U87 have better sounding capsules. I find the same variety between good, very good and barely tolerable U87 capsules in today's production, as I found it in the production of these capsules 30 years ago.

The capsules that Neumann makes today are the least of the company's problems, as far as I am concerned.

[Rail Jon Rogut]

Originally Posted by Klaus

The capsules that Neumann makes today are the least of the company's problems, as far as I am concerned.

Agreed -- I haven't heard a single TLM series I've liked.

BTW - Thanks for participating in these forums - your knowledge is invaluable.

Regards,

Rail

[popmann]

Thanks so much for clarifying, Klaus.

But it is utter myth, in my opinion, that "older" U87 have better sounding capsules. I find the same variety between good, very good and barely tolerable U87 capsules in today's production, as I found it in the production of these capsules 30 years ago

But, in their stock (amp) form...are you agreed that the pre86 87 sound VERY different from the AI models? Not even getting into subjectively better or worse...just very different.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Klaus

This issue has been discussed on several forums, including the Neumann forum,
Gearslutz, and mine. Here are the facts, as I still see them:

1. K87 (the capsule for the U87 before the "A" was introduced, in 1986) and K870 (the U87A capsule, which is also the replacement capsule for the U67, M269 and SM69, both FET and tube) are principally identical in their mechanical, dimensional and acoustic properties.

The difference is that in the old K87 the two backplates were isolated from each other by means of a plastic spacer and plastic tubing around the four backplate mounting screws.
The identially dimensioned spacer in the K870 is made of aluminum, and the mounting screws are without tubing. The rest is absolutely identical. With other words, you could use both capsules interchangeably as long as you use the right spacer and isolation tubing for the respective mic model.

I said that both capsules are "principally" identical. By that I mean that despite the consistent design through the years Neumann has made subtle changes in the execution of the capsules (too much to get into here, but search the fora) which affect the sound, and, in one instance, the longevity of the capsule.

But it is utter myth, in my opinion, that "older" U87 have better sounding capsules. I find the same variety between good, very good and barely tolerable U87 capsules in today's production, as I found it in the production of these capsules 30 years ago.

The capsules that Neumann makes today are the least of the company's problems, as far as I am concerned.

Klaus,

Thanks for your response and for enlightening us on the Neumann issue.

I'd like to know though, what you meant by your last paragraph about "the least of their problems". If I'm thinking of investing in a U87 or any mic in that price range, it would be helpful to know....

Thanks again,

[Kris]

I believe Jim Williams does a U87 mod of some sort for around $100 or so... don't quote me on that...

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

Klaus,
I'd like to know though, what you meant by your last paragraph about "the least of their problems". If I'm thinking of investing in a U87 or any mic in that price range, it would be helpful to know....

What I meant was, that I am saddened by the business reality that Neumann as a Sennheiser subsidiary is facing:

It must deliver profits in the short-to medium time horizon.
Neumann still does that (and did it very well in the 1990s) with its project studio line of mics.

But that reality makes it hard for anyone with a long-term vision for conquering once again the field of high end mics to succeed.

In my opinion, in order to reestablish Neumann as a super-premium microphone manufacturer, it would take large investments and long-range vision- both of which may not be supported any longer by the parent company.

Therefore, I regard it as a blessing that under these adverse circumstances a solid line of first-rate capsules is still available from Neumann, all of which pre-date the current climate the company is in, and little of which required much risk-taking or R+D.

Regarding the U87Ai as it is currently shipped:
Despite some cheapening of housing parts and electrical head contacts (no longer gold-plated dual grip), the mic is one of the last true bargains of excellent designs out there.
I would therefore buy them still with confidence today.

[dreamsongs]

Thank you for this Klaus,

I am considering an 87 and I suppose with all that's been said, if I can get a new one for around 2k, it would be a bargain.

I will call around and make sure that, that's the right quote. From what I understand, there isn't much difference in the new ones from the pre 86 models.

In your consideration, and for the same price, would it be better to go with the new 87 or get a used 67 ?

Thanks,

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

In your consideration, and for the same price, would it be better to go with the new 87 or get a used 67 ?

That will remain an academic question, as a decent U67 starts at roughly twice the price of a new U87Ai, discounted. The price difference reflects the perceived value difference.

I'd go for the U67, just because it's collectible and may yield higher returns on my investment than stocks or bonds these days. (No wonder the good vintage mics have all gone to vaults!)

[popmann]

From what I understand, there isn't much difference in the new ones from the pre 86 models.

Umm...he said they haven't made significant sonic changes in the capsule...and the new ones are still good mics. I don't know that that equates to their not being much difference. A 67 has the same capsule...as does an M269...and all three sound VERY different. The cap is only a part of the equation.

I can assure you that they sound different in their stock form. Whether the mods remove the differences, I would leave up to Stayne and Klaus and Jim to tell--would be speculation on my part...I'm still trying to get my hands on an InnertubeAI kit to play with.