DEFINITIVE SHAPE OF ROOM?

Durv · 27th February 2006, 03:35 PM

Hi there,
What shape would your tracking/live room be for your studio from the ground up?

i am wonderring if people have kind of chosen a FAIRLY definitive shape for room/sound recording? I've seen a couple studio who have the diagnal at their ceilings so as to no right angles up there, and some hexagon like shapes even for rooms.

Thanks
Durv

Durv · 28th February 2006, 06:33 AM

dayUUUummmmm!!!??
bumpessesssss!!
Durv

Anderson · 28th February 2006, 09:26 AM

Hi Durv,

No, there is no "definitive shape" for a CR or a LR. If you build from the ground up, there are of course some basic schemes that can be applied, but there is no one-fit-all solution. Even if the building is being built from ground up, there will always be constraints about size (budget!), material used (budget!), etc...

Here are basics for both CRs and LRs:

To make the long story short, today in CR it's all about Front-To-Back rejection of the acoustic waves. A CR will be shaped so that there are as little reflections as possible in the 10ms time slot (i.e. around 3,3m distance) and diffraction, (not diffusion!) will be used so that the waves are directed towards the back of the room, hence reducing acoustic pressure around the sweet spot to the direct signal as much as possible.

Once the waves reach the rear part of the CR, one should try to absorb, diffuse and diffract so that the reverberated field (short RT in CR, longer in LR) will not color too much the direct field/sweet spot. In a way and up to a certain extent, I will try to reproduce what you would hear from your speakers if you were listening to them in the sweet spot, in a totally quiet desert. Of course, the aim is NOT to have an anechoic or semi-anechoic room, that is really not what you want either.

It happens a lot that when I upgrade a room it takes a while for the engineer to get used to the new acoustics. But then they realize their mixes translate much, much better.

In the case of a LR, there are many examples of what bad acoustics can do to your recordings. One people usually don't think about is EQ. Sometimes, on tracks that were recorded in bad LR (drums, piano, etc...) when using the consoles' EQ or any other EQ, it sounds really "phasy" at some frequencies. Some AE will say that it's the EQ itself, when it's actually the bad room you are hearing! On a good recording, you can push the EQ much further before it sounds "phasy"...

But then again, there is not one-fit-all solution for a LR. The aim there nowadays is to be able to control your RT and have systems to change the color of the room depending on the type of recording that is currently going on. A basic rule is to try to reach a point where the reverberated field in the room is rather neutral, try to limit flutter echo, resonances (modes), etc... It is first dealt with heavy room shaping as well, like in the CR. But in this case, more ambiance is desirable, which is achieved through modular panels - which are a lot of fun to create.

Cheers

Reptil · 28th February 2006, 10:59 AM

HARwF you speak the truth belgian friend! how is life in the country of plenty?

I'm in an old school building, with wooden floors, panels and straw ceiling and brick stone and tiles, and I'm happy, however this all wood room would be nice too: http://www.allairestudios.com/studios.html

funny thing rooms, if they have character, they are all different

Anderson · 28th February 2006, 11:17 AM

Hell that's a nice studio! What an ambiance, huuuuge rooms!

Damn it, got to play lottery more often...

///Reptil, I'm still struggling to find a new building since my big "building pb" late december. Thinking of buying, but in Brussels it's all so bloody expensive. I know it will take time to find "the new(new) building" but it still gets on my nerves on a daily to have all my gear... in a basement! You should see that, cables and gear everywhere (litterally walking on them), such a mess! Moreover, the console regularly blows a couple fuses on the electrical panel of the house when I turn it on. Can't go on like this much longer!

Be well Mister Reptil!///

Reptil · 28th February 2006, 03:41 PM

beautiful it looks, for the sound, must be nice too if you look at the space and the shape.

for decoupling from a dirty mains with spikes I can recommend these:
http://www.ismet.de/Product-Pages/su...uSL.StV158YtKC
obviously if the mains is crap a transformer will do not much good. Maybe the wiring inside the house needs changing?

I had to wait 3 years to move into this room, and worked in a space as "big" as 2.5 by 2.5 mtr.. And everything was in there LOL. Fullrange speakers, DAW modular synth keyboards some outboard, crazy, MAD. so I hope you are not going through the same..
Space is the hardest to find commodity here I guess. But you are like me in the centre of an old city, which makes up for it too I guess. I am longing for the moment I can build a studio by the mediterranean. We all must have dreams, right

Next lottery here is at the 10th of the month...
You too the very best waves!

edit: I wanted to post a link to that new york studio that was built entirely for them by carpenters. amazing, with a dome and a mic hanging way up there...
couldn't find the link, but it was all wood too.... there was a video on that studio video site, give me a moment, I'll find it. you can see a lot of different rooms on that site. now where is it...

Durv · 28th February 2006, 03:53 PM

THANK YOU SO MUCH for your replies.
What do you guys think of those "reactive" Monitors?
such as the new JBL's with the calibration and so forth?

i'm building a tracking and control room next year and have a decent budget.
But i am wonderring about the actualy SHAPE.
should i try to avoid parallel walls entirely? how many degrees OFF 90 works best?
who knows...but thank you again for your replies!
Durv

Reptil · 28th February 2006, 04:18 PM

heee found it
http://www.recordproduction.com/welc...ng_studio_.htm

place is called Avatar studios in NY

Reptil · 28th February 2006, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Durv

THANK YOU SO MUCH for your replies.
What do you guys think of those "reactive" Monitors?
such as the new JBL's with the calibration and so forth?

i'm building a tracking and control room next year and have a decent budget.
But i am wonderring about the actualy SHAPE.
should i try to avoid parallel walls entirely? how many degrees OFF 90 works best?
who knows...but thank you again for your replies!
Durv

I have no experience with those. I love dry "neutral" monitors for nearfield my K&H don't really need eq control, and I think IMHO that those adaptive monitors are nice when you move alot and work in different rooms, at least that could be nice I guess (=deliberately vague).
I have to do some acoustic treatment to my CR too, next week the midfields will be ready (DIY). so bass traps defitively, soffit mount or just stone slabs, maybe put up a stone wall, some panels maybe for lower midrange, diffusers are not really necessary (lots of wood here). Search the board, you'll get a lot of info... I'm not the expert Anderson is..

Durv · 28th February 2006, 04:36 PM

holy crap! AVATAR looks insane.
i'm trying to find out exactly WHAT a room needs for tracking and control room.
I probably wont be able to go HIGH END on much, but i definitely want to have something that HELPS me track and mix as opposed to fighting it.

Is there a book? or some blueprints to check out?
my control room will be about 15ft x 17ft with 8ft ceilings.
the tracking room, i'm gonna say should be 20ft x 30 ft with 14ft ceilings?
(and a closet or 2 for amp vox booth?)
thank you again Reptil and Anderson , you are the man!!
Durv

Reptil · 28th February 2006, 05:40 PM

Hiya Durf,
szitznitz (or something) now how much is feet in mtr.? mmmm 1 feet = 0.304 8 meter
soooo
15 feet = 4.572 meter
17 feet = 5.181 6 meter
7 feet = 2.133 6 meter

looks ok, not really high, that is a pity, treatment depends on the material of the walls...
try to avoid going too symmetrical and vary the surfaces to avoid a completely dead room like suggested by Anderson. I like a bit of a live sound in the CR too. You have to decide on that first. check the board

if you still need books check amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/007...Fencoding=UTF8

Anderson · 1st March 2006, 11:22 AM

I guess I could do something for you Durv...

PM me or send me a mail!

Reptil, if you're in Brussels sometime drop me a mail and we'll have lunch somewhere! And yes, the (old) houses' mains are C-R-A-P but at least it's rather clean. It's more a pb because of the surges when I turn on any of the 3 PSUs. Once it's on, it's Ok. The first time it happened (mains blowing up) I thought I blew up the console, I completely freaked out! And of course, no use of any kitchenware or washing machine at the same time... Hey, gotta love the job! No hot food and no clean underwears

Anyway, I still spend 60% of my time engineering acoustics, so it's not so bad, not like my whole business was shut down since 4 months!

http://www.comocomo.com Nice place, nice food!

Take care all of you!

Reptil · 2nd March 2006, 07:15 AM

Sure I will do that. thank you for the kind invitation.
Whenever in Holland, do the same! I know some nice places here too.

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27th February 2006, 03:35 PM	#1
Durv Gear addict Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore MD Posts: 398	DEFINITIVE SHAPE OF ROOM? Hi there, What shape would your tracking/live room be for your studio from the ground up? i am wonderring if people have kind of chosen a FAIRLY definitive shape for room/sound recording? I've seen a couple studio who have the diagnal at their ceilings so as to no right angles up there, and some hexagon like shapes even for rooms. Thanks Durv Last edited by Durv; 27th February 2006 at 03:40 PM. Reason: i cant type without cofffeeee! sorry. too many typos

28th February 2006, 10:59 AM	#4
Reptil Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Uterèg statsie woar! Posts: 9,538	HARwF you speak the truth belgian friend! how is life in the country of plenty? I'm in an old school building, with wooden floors, panels and straw ceiling and brick stone and tiles, and I'm happy, however this all wood room would be nice too: http://www.allairestudios.com/studios.html funny thing rooms, if they have character, they are all different __________________ Woman: Are you the police? Jake: No ma'm, we're musicians.

28th February 2006, 03:41 PM	#6
Reptil Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Uterèg statsie woar! Posts: 9,538	beautiful it looks, for the sound, must be nice too if you look at the space and the shape. for decoupling from a dirty mains with spikes I can recommend these: http://www.ismet.de/Product-Pages/su...uSL.StV158YtKC obviously if the mains is crap a transformer will do not much good. Maybe the wiring inside the house needs changing? I had to wait 3 years to move into this room, and worked in a space as "big" as 2.5 by 2.5 mtr.. And everything was in there LOL. Fullrange speakers, DAW modular synth keyboards some outboard, crazy, MAD. so I hope you are not going through the same.. Space is the hardest to find commodity here I guess. But you are like me in the centre of an old city, which makes up for it too I guess. I am longing for the moment I can build a studio by the mediterranean. We all must have dreams, right Next lottery here is at the 10th of the month... You too the very best waves! edit: I wanted to post a link to that new york studio that was built entirely for them by carpenters. amazing, with a dome and a mic hanging way up there... couldn't find the link, but it was all wood too.... there was a video on that studio video site, give me a moment, I'll find it. you can see a lot of different rooms on that site. now where is it... __________________ Woman: Are you the police? Jake: No ma'm, we're musicians.

28th February 2006, 04:18 PM	#8
Reptil Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Uterèg statsie woar! Posts: 9,538	heee found it http://www.recordproduction.com/welc...ng_studio_.htm place is called Avatar studios in NY Attached Thumbnails __________________ Woman: Are you the police? Jake: No ma'm, we're musicians.

28th February 2006, 06:33 AM	#2
Durv Gear addict Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore MD Posts: 398	dayUUUummmmm!!!?? bumpessesssss!! Durv

28th February 2006, 09:26 AM	#3
Anderson Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brussels, Belgium. Posts: 472	Hi Durv, No, there is no "definitive shape" for a CR or a LR. If you build from the ground up, there are of course some basic schemes that can be applied, but there is no one-fit-all solution. Even if the building is being built from ground up, there will always be constraints about size (budget!), material used (budget!), etc... Here are basics for both CRs and LRs: To make the long story short, today in CR it's all about Front-To-Back rejection of the acoustic waves. A CR will be shaped so that there are as little reflections as possible in the 10ms time slot (i.e. around 3,3m distance) and diffraction, (not diffusion!) will be used so that the waves are directed towards the back of the room, hence reducing acoustic pressure around the sweet spot to the direct signal as much as possible. Once the waves reach the rear part of the CR, one should try to absorb, diffuse and diffract so that the reverberated field (short RT in CR, longer in LR) will not color too much the direct field/sweet spot. In a way and up to a certain extent, I will try to reproduce what you would hear from your speakers if you were listening to them in the sweet spot, in a totally quiet desert. Of course, the aim is NOT to have an anechoic or semi-anechoic room, that is really not what you want either. It happens a lot that when I upgrade a room it takes a while for the engineer to get used to the new acoustics. But then they realize their mixes translate much, much better. In the case of a LR, there are many examples of what bad acoustics can do to your recordings. One people usually don't think about is EQ. Sometimes, on tracks that were recorded in bad LR (drums, piano, etc...) when using the consoles' EQ or any other EQ, it sounds really "phasy" at some frequencies. Some AE will say that it's the EQ itself, when it's actually the bad room you are hearing! On a good recording, you can push the EQ much further before it sounds "phasy"... But then again, there is not one-fit-all solution for a LR. The aim there nowadays is to be able to control your RT and have systems to change the color of the room depending on the type of recording that is currently going on. A basic rule is to try to reach a point where the reverberated field in the room is rather neutral, try to limit flutter echo, resonances (modes), etc... It is first dealt with heavy room shaping as well, like in the CR. But in this case, more ambiance is desirable, which is achieved through modular panels - which are a lot of fun to create. Cheers

28th February 2006, 11:17 AM	#5
Anderson Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brussels, Belgium. Posts: 472	Hell that's a nice studio! What an ambiance, huuuuge rooms! Damn it, got to play lottery more often... ///Reptil, I'm still struggling to find a new building since my big "building pb" late december. Thinking of buying, but in Brussels it's all so bloody expensive. I know it will take time to find "the new(new) building" but it still gets on my nerves on a daily to have all my gear... in a basement! You should see that, cables and gear everywhere (litterally walking on them), such a mess! Moreover, the console regularly blows a couple fuses on the electrical panel of the house when I turn it on. Can't go on like this much longer! Be well Mister Reptil!///

28th February 2006, 03:53 PM	#7
Durv Gear addict Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore MD Posts: 398	THANK YOU SO MUCH for your replies. What do you guys think of those "reactive" Monitors? such as the new JBL's with the calibration and so forth? i'm building a tracking and control room next year and have a decent budget. But i am wonderring about the actualy SHAPE. should i try to avoid parallel walls entirely? how many degrees OFF 90 works best? who knows...but thank you again for your replies! Durv

28th February 2006, 04:36 PM	#10
Durv Gear addict Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore MD Posts: 398	holy crap! AVATAR looks insane. i'm trying to find out exactly WHAT a room needs for tracking and control room. I probably wont be able to go HIGH END on much, but i definitely want to have something that HELPS me track and mix as opposed to fighting it. Is there a book? or some blueprints to check out? my control room will be about 15ft x 17ft with 8ft ceilings. the tracking room, i'm gonna say should be 20ft x 30 ft with 14ft ceilings? (and a closet or 2 for amp vox booth?) thank you again Reptil and Anderson , you are the man!! Durv

28th February 2006, 05:40 PM	#11
Reptil Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Uterèg statsie woar! Posts: 9,538	Hiya Durf, szitznitz (or something) now how much is feet in mtr.? mmmm 1 feet = 0.304 8 meter soooo 15 feet = 4.572 meter 17 feet = 5.181 6 meter 7 feet = 2.133 6 meter looks ok, not really high, that is a pity, treatment depends on the material of the walls... try to avoid going too symmetrical and vary the surfaces to avoid a completely dead room like suggested by Anderson. I like a bit of a live sound in the CR too. You have to decide on that first. check the board if you still need books check amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/007...Fencoding=UTF8 __________________ Woman: Are you the police? Jake: No ma'm, we're musicians.

1st March 2006, 11:22 AM	#12
Anderson Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brussels, Belgium. Posts: 472	I guess I could do something for you Durv... PM me or send me a mail! Reptil, if you're in Brussels sometime drop me a mail and we'll have lunch somewhere! And yes, the (old) houses' mains are C-R-A-P but at least it's rather clean. It's more a pb because of the surges when I turn on any of the 3 PSUs. Once it's on, it's Ok. The first time it happened (mains blowing up) I thought I blew up the console, I completely freaked out! And of course, no use of any kitchenware or washing machine at the same time... Hey, gotta love the job! No hot food and no clean underwears Anyway, I still spend 60% of my time engineering acoustics, so it's not so bad, not like my whole business was shut down since 4 months! http://www.comocomo.com Nice place, nice food! Take care all of you!

2nd March 2006, 07:15 AM	#13
Reptil Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Uterèg statsie woar! Posts: 9,538	Sure I will do that. thank you for the kind invitation. Whenever in Holland, do the same! I know some nice places here too. __________________ Woman: Are you the police? Jake: No ma'm, we're musicians.

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