Help! College Vs. Gear

[Poopants]

I have a dillemma, I can't decide what to do...

I recently took a break from the industry and figured I'd go back to college while I'm still young, I've been in community college since December now. I'm only really in college to learn about my OTHER passions, philosophy and religion, so it has nothing to do with a career of any kind, I'm just going to satisfy my lust for knowledge and live the college life while I can.

So here's what I can't decide - after my 2 years is up at community, do I spend $20,000 on another 2 years at another college to get a bachelor, or do I spend that on gear, and read some books instead of go to classes?

I record mostly pop/rock/emo/hardcore type stuff at the moment but would love to expand!

Here's what I have right now:
iMac G5 2.1
DIGI002
Mytek 8X96 (8X192 coming in a week or so finally)
Benchmark DAC-1
Seventh Circle Audio rack with 3 N72, 1 J99 and 4 A12
Sytek MPX-4A
EL Fatso
EL Lil Freq
ADAM S2A's

Mics: 57's, 421's, e609, RE-20, Subkick, AT4047, SP C1, SM7, Oktava 012's, others
Plugs: MCDSP Analog Channel, Altiverb, Autotune, Hydratone, Waves Diamond, Waves SSL, DUY Everpack

I'm at my limit with LE right now, I'm working on a project and I have to bounce stems just to be able to record new tracks without it stopping every 10 seconds...plus editing is slow because it's so bogged down...I can manage but it's a real headache. I'm am very good with track/plugin management too, very organized, so thats not the problem.

------------

Now here's what I was fantasizing about spending $20,000 on (mostly used):

Protools HD2 - $6000
96 I/O - $1400
Powermac & Screen - $2600
2 Distressors - $2500
Drawmer 1968 - $2000
Coles 4038 - $1100
Beyer 160 - $400
Neumann U89 - $1500
and maybe a tube mic, any suggestions? Any Gefell or Soundelux mics?

What would you guys do differently with $20k considering what I already have?

[Art]

Hey,

I think you have plenty of gear!!! Diversify, Invest in your education. You'll have more options. You could always buy gear, but going to school becomes less of a reality as one gets older (I have found). Good luck.

Art

[Almost Human]

I agree with the above. Your setup already sounds great and you should be able to make some killer recordings with what you have. I'd invest some money in the education. Not to mention college is great...some of the best times of your life. Find a good university, and have at it...

[jayfrigo]

Get a 4 year degree while you can. You can always buy gear. You'll likely be mad at yourself years down the line if you don't finish your education.

[Sara_tonin]

Agree with the other replies, there's always shit to learn, people to meet, etc.
Plus you can get a good sound with the setup you have.

[desol]

Yep...edu....
besides..in a few years your pro tools setup will be worth crap...as is the fate
for all digital junk.

Finish your degree/diploma...'then' spend 5 grand...or whatever it costs to get in(if anything)...towards an internship with a well known engineer.

[JB3]

Make it unanimous from me! Have some fun. See if you can't expand your social horizons as well. Get the Bachelor's. Do it in Philosophy, Religion, or Basket Weaving...there is no substitute for a good liberal arts education...get it while you can. And on that note, don't forget there are a lot of good schools offering BA in Fine Arts, Recording Sciences. Might look nice on the resume and get to network with top musicians of the future places like Berklee, New York Arts, USC, etc.

Free advice and worth every penny...

...J

(PS I never regret getting my BS UCLA '71, Sigma Chi, opened some doors that otherwise I'd never have known about...Also have three sons currently attending three separate institutions doing the same. Ha ha ha)

[ekimeno]

Wow - for a moment there I thought I was on edu-slutz...

Buy gear, damn it. GEAR!

[picksail]

What's your passion?

[Poopants]

Wow! That's a pretty unanimous reaction...I expected MORE SLUTTINESS!!
Nobody here would go with the gear instead of the (auxillary) education?
I guess gearslutz can have some sense of reality too.

As a side note I already have a degree in recording so that's not really what I'm looking for, at this point I don't think a school can teach me much more than I would learn by being out there assisting and also engineering on my own (at least not enough to be worth the time and money).

So how about a new plan, I get student loans and work/save up for the next 2 years to pay for college and buy the gear anyway!! I like that idea much better.



So in light of this new plan, how would you guys rate my purchasing decisions? Anything you would change or add? BTW, is it likely that Digi will update the HD line anytime soon?

[Poopants]

LOL at least one person here is slutty...

Originally Posted by ekimeno

Wow - for a moment there I thought I was on edu-slutz...

Buy gear, damn it. GEAR!

Originally Posted by picksail

What's your passion?

Pick asked the perfect ?, but honestly both Schooll and Gear can be bad investments with diminishing returns. First off I'd say that if you are gonna spend 10G's a year on school going for Philosophy may not be a good investment. I'd say switch to a state school where you can hopefully go for $2Gs a year and if you can get a return on your investment in gear, spend 10 on gear and let the gear pay for the rest of the upgrade

I went to the expensive Roman Catholic Loyola University for undergrad only to find that classes @ the University of New Orleans utilized the EXACT same books and in more than one case two classes had almost the same syllabus. Needless to say I went to UNO for Grad school

Go to a state school but Bust your ass to learn. There you dont have teachers that go out of their way to teach you as often as in a private school, but you can learn in that environment if you are serious about it

I'd say finish your last 2 years at a state school, then enroll in a State grad school, The tuition will be cheap, but you could then borrow the MAXIMUM loan amount and save it to invest in some low risk investment / business. (It's the cheapest money you will ever borrow)

[tunesmith]

I'm kind of torn.

I wish I knew exactly how old you are (I'm 29.) I know I woulnd't trade my time at college for anything in the world, but I also know that had I chosen a different path, I think I actually could be further with my musical career then I currently am. Which is not to say that I am doing particularly badly, as I do music for 100% of my income.

I think if your career goals are to work in audio and recording, and you already have a degree in that, perhaps making a financial investment to further your career isn't a bad idea. I might suggest that anything digital (at this stage in your life) may not be the way to go. You might really regret that later. Maybe it's time to add that killer piece that sets you apart from the competition. Maybe it's time to invest some dough into that killer track that jumps your career.

Not to mention that you have gear that I would have killed for. In college I had my Roland XP-50, Mac Performa 630, Logic (pre Logic Audio), my Alesis Monitor Ones, and I thought I was the shit. I made my masters onto VHS Hifi tapes for god's sake.

Ok... enough about me.

Another thing that really hit me was that you mentioned religion and philosophy, two topics about which I am passionate, but man... you don't have to spend that kind of dough to learn and debate and get fired up or mentally blissed out. Aside from the number of resources outside of academia, have you considered auditing classes? Isn't that significantly cheaper, and a similar result if you're not really in it for the degree?

[Poopants]

My passion is engineering, maybe mixing a little more than recording, but I love that too.

It's funny because I'm in this project right now that's taking up EVERY MINUTE of my time that I'm not in school, non-stop, and I keep telling myself that I'm sick of recording, but at the end of the day when the band has finally left and my eyes are bleeding, I look for something else to do so I can rest, and I usually end up playing with the newly recorded material and experimenting with new techniques and reading gearslutz and prosoundweb and anything else I can find...until it's very late at night and I get 4 hours of sleep, go to class, come home, record all day, and start all over again...

It seems like I actually have LESS time than when I was non-stop interning at a major studio last year...I thought I was giving myself a break by going back to school and recording on my own!

Anyway

My other passion is religion/philosophy/mysticism/metaphysics/science and other quackery, which I really consider just one topic, life...

I can't decide which I like more, mixing or life

Anyway, any gear comments?
Or spiritual revelations?

Originally Posted by picksail

What's your passion?

[picksail]

Looks like you've answered your own question.

Really, I'd love to get into this, but it could easily turn into a four hour 'conversation'.

I discovered which worked better for ME, but I don't want to advise you to take the path which leads to ruin.

[matt thomas]

I don't entirely agree, I have a degree in philosophy myself, and it was a big waste of money, as is any degree that doesn't lead to somehing specific (eg medicine, law etc.)

Although my course was interesting I could've just read some books myself and discussed with other like minded individuals to quench my thirst for knowledge, instead of paying 20k to be told to read exactly the same books..

The best part (by far ) of going to University for me as the social side of it, but if you have to go to university to have a social life there's something wrong. Although I wouldn't take back my time at uni the education side of it was reasonably pointless.

On the other hand you can always buy gear, and most importantly you don't need gear, either to be a succesful recording artist or producer or engineer, jus use other peoples.. (not very slutty philosophy, but alot of people seem to think buying more gear will make thm a succesful producer/enginer, if I buy a Neotek I'll be the next Steve Albini type thinking..)

On the other hand (I didn't study human anatomy OK?) you can always go to Uni and sit in on the lectures without enroling if you just want an education. A degree in Phil or Religion doesn't really get you very far..

blah blah blah

narco

[picksail]

Originally Posted by narco

A degree in Phil or Religion doesn't really get you very far.

Unfortunately, this is absolutely true of any modern industrial society.

This is a reality.

I too, studied sociology, philosophy, physics, etc., but I did it by spending long hours in the library (before the internet). I was compelled by certain writings and just had a lust for knowledge. Two of my biggest heros are Immanuel Kant and Theodor Adorno.

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by tunesmith

I'm kind of torn.

I wish I knew exactly how old you are (I'm 29.) I know I woulnd't trade my time at college for anything in the world, but I also know that had I chosen a different path, I think I actually could be further with my musical career then I currently am. Which is not to say that I am doing particularly badly, as I do music for 100% of my income.

I think if your career goals are to work in audio and recording, and you already have a degree in that, perhaps making a financial investment to further your career isn't a bad idea. I might suggest that anything digital (at this stage in your life) may not be the way to go. You might really regret that later. Maybe it's time to add that killer piece that sets you apart from the competition. Maybe it's time to invest some dough into that killer track that jumps your career.

Not to mention that you have gear that I would have killed for. In college I had my Roland XP-50, Mac Performa 630, Logic (pre Logic Audio), my Alesis Monitor Ones, and I thought I was the shit. I made my masters onto VHS Hifi tapes for god's sake.

Ok... enough about me.

Another thing that really hit me was that you mentioned religion and philosophy, two topics about which I am passionate, but man... you don't have to spend that kind of dough to learn and debate and get fired up or mentally blissed out. Aside from the number of resources outside of academia, have you considered auditing classes? Isn't that significantly cheaper, and a similar result if you're not really in it for the degree?

I'm 21.

So if you were me you wouldn't upgrade to an HD rig? That seems almost like a must for me at this point. I really am going crazy with LE. I can't take the lag anymore, I thought I could deal with it but it's getting frustrating. I've made compromises ITB for a long time and now I really feel boxed in (no pun intended). I know that in general digital gear is a bad investment but I feel like in this case there's no way around it if I'm going to continue to work ITB, which I really have to. Computers are a bad investment too but you still buy a new one every few (couple?) years. Maybe I'll wait to see what the new Intel Powermacs will be like, maybe I won't really need HD and I can get along with the LE Music Production Bundle or whatever it's called.

I was thinking about that before (about how taking a different path might have led you to a different point in your career), I was wondering, if I just started my career right now and dove right into the industry I'd have an advantage because I'm so young, but I'm scared that I'd be wasting (well not wasting, but you know) the best years of my life in the hell-period of an engineer's career (100 hour weeks, cleaning toilets, etc, have experienced a lot of this already! and I'm sure there's more to come). That's part of the reason I went back to college, I didn't want to step onto that path quite yet because I wouldn't be able to get off for a long long time. But now I'm seeing some opportunities arising and I'm tempted to dive in now.

What (in your opinion) would be that killer piece that I should invest in? I feel like the biggest thing I'm lacking right now (sonically) is a good sounding room to record in. Right now I just setup my rig whever the band can work out a decent space, which has ended up being in living rooms, kitchens, etc. and then mixing in my room which is treated pretty well (with fiberglass, heimholtz resonators, etc). For the project I'm doing right now I even moved my whole rig downstairs to my dining room so we could use my treated room as a dead recording space! It works well but it's a little rediculous.

About the religion/philosophy stuff, that's what I was thinking, that's why I'm debating about this, do I really have to spend $20,000 to learn this stuff? I mean I would enjoy every minute of it but I'm sure there are cheaper ways to do it. I haven't looked into auditing classes, that's something I didn't think about.

So in your experience though, you wouldn't have traded your college years for some faster progress in your career?

Thanks for all the replies guys, I wasn't expecting all the response!

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by Poopants

I'm only really in college to learn about my OTHER passions, philosophy and religion, so it has nothing to do with a career of any kind, I'm just going to satisfy my lust for knowledge and live the college life while I can.

Go to college!! It'll affect everything you do, in every part of your life. in ways you might not have expected...

I went to college to study English Literature / Linguistics / Rhetoric - big money makers as you might imagine! (not) I went for my love of academics and pursued a course of study that I was sincerely interested in.

In college my whole world view changed - it became more dynamic, vivid, informed, and well rounded. I feel I left college a different person then when I first entered.

I wouldn't think about tuition cost in terms of potential post graduate income, I'd think about it terms of potential personal growth and development.

Best answer is: get motivated and creative and do both!

Who needs sleep, right?

[Poopants]

Kant! Good sh!t, good sh!t

That's the thing, I didn't expect a philosophy degree to be worth anything, I just want to learn, I've got that same lust. That's why I'm having a hard time thinking about throwing so much money into it when I know I could just read the same books for infinitely cheaper...and then get some great gear. You've all made some great suggestions I'll have to look into.

Originally Posted by picksail

Unfortunately, this is absolutely true of any modern industrial society.

This is a reality.

I too, studied sociology, philosophy, physics, etc., but I did it by spending long hours in the library (before the internet). I was compelled by certain writings and just had a lust for knowledge. Two of my biggest heros are Immanuel Kant and Theodor Adorno.

The biggest thing that College teaches is "how to learn"

After graduation, you know how to be resourceful and this is priceless.

With that said GO TO A STATE SCHOOL

OR if the entire degree thing is not important, go to Amazon and search for the textbook list of the top school in your field in the USA,

Buy the textbooks used, and read for understanding. It's more than you would ever read for with a college schedule. In school you basically retain enough to get a good grade, the real "learning" for me came afterwards.

BUt hell what do I know I left music to go and get 2 degrees and each of my childhood friends that had musical interests had platinum albums rapping/producing

[LightningBefore]

Definatley a tough call. Im 20 so I can somewhat feel for your dilemma. I live at home and always have, I haven't worked at a big studio but went to a 2 year for this stuff. Didn't get the great social life of a University (got that on tour), but realized I love doing this. Yeah its long hours and sometimes you feel like youll die or can't keep going, but I fall into the same addicted audio pattern as you. Maybe you'll fall out of it or maybe you'll fall deeper. Your schooling paths are very interesting indeed. . . a brilliant man I know and a great engineer is TOTALLY into the same thing and I hold him in a very high reguard. He went to the Univeristy of Wisconsin, learned all the topics you mentioned, but got a degree in English. Granted, guess what he does when he's not in the studio or reading crazy books? Got it! Teaches at the audio school I went to. There are a lot of options and a lot of life. . .got to keep looking to the future but take each day as a day and make yourself happy in each moment.

as for me. . . I just went from the LE to the PTHD as well.

hopefully soon I'll get to move out of the house and out of the cold midwest. . .

do you have any audio files I could hear? Im into the same type of music you are.

good luck!

*Jeff Bobula

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by Poopants

About the religion/philosophy stuff, that's what I was thinking, that's why I'm debating about this, do I really have to spend $20,000 to learn this stuff? I mean I would enjoy every minute of it but I'm sure there are cheaper ways to do it. I haven't looked into auditing classes, that's something I didn't think about.

Totally. Why should I spend $5k at a nice studio when my guitar player has a copy of Cubase and a warezed Waves Diamond bundle?

I'm guessing you get the analogy.

The reason you're paying the big bucks is because you get the chance to collaborate with some brilliant people who have dedicated their life to a certain sector of academia.

Self study is a great way to learn. Absolutely. But it does not replace the institution of higher education - the social components of learning, the peer induced competition, and the "college experience".

Best of luck in your choice.

[AdamJay]

buy gear, and used textbooks.

i dropped out of college 6 years ago to pursue my own productions and performances... best move i ever made. i still read alot and i'm more of an information junkie now than when i was in college. its like i'm a freaking fanatic when i start to learn about a subject i am not familiar with.

anyways, that was 6 years ago....
here i am now, i've toured the world over and lived solely off my craft for the last 4 years. I've bought a house and studio space (with cash, no leases/mortgages) and i plan to spend the next 10-20 years recording other people's passions.

Had i stayed in college, then right about now i would be coming out of it with a Masters degree in business (blah), 6 figures of debt, and without the lifetime of audio experience i was lucky enough to compound into the last 6 years of my life.
No house, no studio, no experience... just a hell of alot of debt. Granted, i'd probably make alot more in a yearly salary... but most likely at a job i don't love, and even at $50k a year, it would take me 8 years to pay off my student loans unless i wanted to live on ramen while i pay them off.
Dropping out of college was the smartest move i ever made.

YMMV.

whichever path you choose, good luck!

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by norman_nomad

Totally. Why should I spend $5k at a nice studio when my guitar player has a copy of Cubase and a warezed Waves Diamond bundle?

I'm guessing you get the analogy.

The reason you're paying the big bucks is because you get the chance to collaborate with some brilliant people who have dedicated their life to a certain sector of academia.

Self study is a great way to learn. Absolutely. But it does not replace the institution of higher education - the social components of learning, the peer induced competition, and the "college experience".

Best of luck in your choice.

AHH!! Damn you and your reasoning...making my decisions tougher...
I do have to admit that I'm really yearning for that "college experience" also, that is a factor. I'm just trying to convince myself it's not because I WANT TO BLOW ALL MY MONEY ON GEAR!! But I guess I really don't. I mean I do, but these experiences are worth more than the material stuff, and I can always save for other things later.

NO SSL made some good points too, maybe going to a cheaper school will be the best of both worlds, I can get that experience AND have some money left over for the good stuff. The $20,000 figure came from me planning on going to Rutgers because it's close to me and it's a great school, plus I'm a NJ resident so that $10,000 a year is a lot cheaper than it would be if I were not a resident...

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by LightningBefore

Definatley a tough call. Im 20 so I can somewhat feel for your dilemma. I live at home and always have, I haven't worked at a big studio but went to a 2 year for this stuff. Didn't get the great social life of a University (got that on tour), but realized I love doing this. Yeah its long hours and sometimes you feel like youll die or can't keep going, but I fall into the same addicted audio pattern as you. Maybe you'll fall out of it or maybe you'll fall deeper. Your schooling paths are very interesting indeed. . . a brilliant man I know and a great engineer is TOTALLY into the same thing and I hold him in a very high reguard. He went to the Univeristy of Wisconsin, learned all the topics you mentioned, but got a degree in English. Granted, guess what he does when he's not in the studio or reading crazy books? Got it! Teaches at the audio school I went to. There are a lot of options and a lot of life. . .got to keep looking to the future but take each day as a day and make yourself happy in each moment.

as for me. . . I just went from the LE to the PTHD as well.

hopefully soon I'll get to move out of the house and out of the cold midwest. . .

do you have any audio files I could hear? Im into the same type of music you are.

good luck!

*Jeff Bobula

I'm pretty sure I'm just going to fall deeper, I tend to obsess about things until I master/know everything about them, and is this really something you can master?

So was HD worth the upgrade?
Don't answer that.

The first mix I did for this project is up in the MP3 section, I've done a lot more work on it now and we're in the process of re-doing the guitars so looking back on it I don't think it sounds that great anymore...but it got a great reaction from the forum, I was pretty excited. It's the first thing I've done so far with a bunch of new toys (the Myteks, SCA pres, etc)

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=58256

[Poopants]

jeez guys...it makes it tough when all sides of the fence look just as good...
It's funny that for every possibility I considered in my head there is someone posting who is in living that possibility...

Originally Posted by AdamJay

buy gear, and used textbooks.

i dropped out of college 6 years ago to pursue my own productions and performances... best move i ever made. i still read alot and i'm more of an information junkie now than when i was in college. its like i'm a freaking fanatic when i start to learn about a subject i am not familiar with.

anyways, that was 6 years ago....
here i am now, i've toured the world over and lived solely off my craft for the last 4 years. I've bought a house and studio space (with cash, no leases/mortgages) and i plan to spend the next 10-20 years recording other people's passions.

Had i stayed in college, then right about now i would be coming out of it with a Masters degree in business (blah), 6 figures of debt, and without the lifetime of audio experience i was lucky enough to compound into the last 6 years of my life.
No house, no studio, no experience... just a hell of alot of debt. Granted, i'd probably make alot more in a yearly salary... but most likely at a job i don't love, and even at $50k a year, it would take me 8 years to pay off my student loans unless i wanted to live on ramen while i pay them off.
Dropping out of college was the smartest move i ever made.

YMMV.

whichever path you choose, good luck!

[picksail]

If you have a predilection for learning, it doesn't matter how or where you do it. Just like those of faith don't have to hang around a church to derive fulfillment.

Ambivalence gets you nowhere.

[Poopants]

HAH! 100th post!

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by picksail

If you have a predilection for learning, it doesn't matter how or where you do it. Just like those of faith don't have to hang around a church to derive fulfillment.

Ambivalence gets you nowhere.

Very true, but I'd like to hang with the clergy and have a chat also....