Mix ITB it Doesn't Matter!

[stealthbalance]

come on shipshape ...... share your findings please-

s

[robot gigante]

I think that digitaldruglord has to scrub the toilet first and make coffee before he can wipe the floor...

[studjo]

yeah Ship - your findings would be great





















and those floor whipping mixes - I really need em






Jo

[galli]

Bump on Mr. Shipshape experience on summing ITB versus summing with Folcrom.

Originally Posted by shipshape

Raal ;
I get your point , but I only work in 2 outside studios in LA for the last 10 years and always bring my own monitors (including ns10's , silly I know) but thats what I do b'cos I know the studios so well having spent years in both of them.
This whole folcrom or not folcrom stuff , or summing or not summing is kinda boring , For my own piece of mind , tonight I;m gonna do a mix with NO summing and see what it sounds like in comparison to the summing I've been doing all this time.
My belief is that it will be different , but completely fine and I dont mean just OK , I got the folcrom early on and have stuck with it 'cos it works. It will be fun to try without it.


Peace shipshape

[shipshape]

Sorry for the lack of reply but I did the test on the weekend and literally don't have time to give my "personal opinion" today but as soon as Ive finished mixing this record,
(tomorow) I will have time to tell ya what I think.
Peace shipshape

[galli]

Great. Thank you.

As per your answer, I'd bet you felt a difference summing without the Folcrom (if not, you’d have just answered “no difference at all”).
I (and several others I’m sure) will be waiting your comments.

Thanks again.

[raal]

Originally Posted by shipshape

Sorry for the lack of reply but I did the test on the weekend and literally don't have time to give my "personal opinion" today but as soon as Ive finished mixing this record,
(tomorow) I will have time to tell ya what I think.
Peace shipshape

[djui5]

Originally Posted by raal

[studjo]

Originally Posted by djui5

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by studjo

.....errrrrr...... okay..... I agree....



Thanks Ship!

[Magickman]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

.....errrrrr...... okay..... I agree....



Thanks Ship!

Okay, been hiding in the corner since day one, but I just can't refuse a good ""!!!

[joeq]

oh you guys think you're so clever!

try to quote Magickman and add six of your own!

[JP11]

....

[joeq]

...slow down

[drundall]

Originally Posted by Fleaman

I too was hoping those floor wiping mixes done on a Protools LE system ITB with choice plug-ins would allow me to sell off all my old-school non-Pro-tools mixers/recorders and outboard, buy a nice house, a Pro-tools LE, and call it a day.
Oh well, it wasn't to be. Must keep my OTB equipment and continue to live off Top-Ramen and food stamps...



Fleaman

Damn! All my plans foiled! I love Top Ramen though...

[Jim Williams]

After all this talk about "perfect" digital summing, I tried playing around with it. I ran my usual mix, HD24XR into the Soundcraft Delta. I then ran a submix using a modified Midiman Sam into the console with a short 5 track submix. This feeds a custom D/A converter designed by Michal of Mytek and myself. It uses a BurrBrown PCM1704 dac into THS3061 transconductance opamps with a 7000 v/us slew rate and direct coupled outputs. This is a very honest dac.

Drums sounded OK, a bit smaller than just the straight 2 channel feed. The big problem is my guitar. It sounds wooly. The mids are congested in the 200~400 hz area. Something "digital" sounding is there as well, I'm very sensitive to digital harmonics on an electric guitar, it's very easy to hear any harmonic shifts.
The Midiman Sam used a Motoloa 56000 processor to allow 8 track digital mixing without the mutiplication problems of software sum designs. It has very low latency, less than any software scheme.

The rig was set up for instant A/B comparisons. It is not subtile. As soon as the straight feed from the HD24 is heard, the sound returns to what I've been hearing all along. Yes, this is the sound of the guitar when either coming off the internal AKM converters or any of my custom outboard converters. Even a top notch converter doesn't overcome this digital summing problem. The 1704 converter outputs sound just like the HD24's AKM converter outputs, it only changes when digital summing is brought into "the mix".

Personally, I don't know how you guys can make this digital summing thing work, all the examples I've heard are not pleasing. Just listen to Mutt Lange's Shania T. mixes, there is something wrong sounding about that stuff. It's sort of like Demeral compared to opium, it's the organic thing.

Keep in mind, this experiment has nothing to do with the depth discussion, I didn't try to determine that as I couldn't get beyond the destructive effects on my guitar.

One thig is for sure, I'm more convinced than ever that digital summing is wrong for me.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

After all this talk about "perfect" digital summing, I tried playing around with it. I ran my usual mix, HD24XR into the Soundcraft Delta. I then ran a submix using a modified Midiman Sam into the console with a short 5 track submix. This feeds a custom D/A converter designed by Michal of Mytek and myself. It uses a BurrBrown PCM1704 dac into THS3061 transconductance opamps with a 7000 v/us slew rate and direct coupled outputs. This is a very honest dac.

Drums sounded OK, a bit smaller than just the straight 2 channel feed. The big problem is my guitar. It sounds wooly. The mids are congested in the 200~400 hz area. Something "digital" sounding is there as well, I'm very sensitive to digital harmonics on an electric guitar, it's very easy to hear any harmonic shifts.
The Midiman Sam used a Motoloa 56000 processor to allow 8 track digital mixing without the mutiplication problems of software sum designs. It has very low latency, less than any software scheme.

The rig was set up for instant A/B comparisons. It is not subtile. As soon as the straight feed from the HD24 is heard, the sound returns to what I've been hearing all along. Yes, this is the sound of the guitar when either coming off the internal AKM converters or any of my custom outboard converters. Even a top notch converter doesn't overcome this digital summing problem. The 1704 converter outputs sound just like the HD24's AKM converter outputs, it only changes when digital summing is brought into "the mix".

Personally, I don't know how you guys can make this digital summing thing work, all the examples I've heard are not pleasing. Just listen to Mutt Lange's Shania T. mixes, there is something wrong sounding about that stuff. It's sort of like Demeral compared to opium, it's the organic thing.

Keep in mind, this experiment has nothing to do with the depth discussion, I didn't try to determine that as I couldn't get beyond the destructive effects on my guitar.

One thig is for sure, I'm more convinced than ever that digital summing is wrong for me.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Thanks for the report Jim.

So just to get this clear you are not saying the digital "tracks" are the problem with what you are hearing. You are saying the digital tracks were okay but the digital summing is not good.

Also, I may have missed something in your post but are you saying that you did one method with one set of converters and another method which a different set? It seems like that is what you are saying and if that is the case it kind of makes the whole test some what suspect right? Not comparing apples to apples at that point are you?

Thanks again.

[stealthbalance]

how about if nobody makes any comparisons to shania mixes until we hear back from you know who ...sound good ??
waiting ..........waiting.........................waiting..........

s

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Thanks for the report Jim.

So just to get this clear you are not saying the digital "tracks" are the problem with what you are hearing. You are saying the digital tracks were okay but the digital summing is not good.

Also, I may have missed something in your post but are you saying that you did one method with one set of converters and another method which a different set? It seems like that is what you are saying and if that is the case it kind of makes the whole test some what suspect right? Not comparing apples to apples at that point are you?

Thanks again.

To clarify, the guitar sounds very close whether I used the AKM converters or the BurrBrown's. The drum quality changes a lot between the AKM and BurrBrown converters. The changes happening to the guitars are done by the digital summing, not different converters.

There is much more change/damage done to the guitars via digital summing than any differences caused by different converters.

Anyone else want to try this out?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Forgive me, but this whole thing is kinda STUPID!


If ship comes back and says he loves his folcrom and had to go back to it, or
IF ship comes back and says he got good results itb and doesnt need to sum externally,


WHAT on God's green Earth will this do for YOUR mixes?

USE what works for YOU. What works for Ship may not be for you!

BUT if you must know what he thinks its already out there. Do a search. The folcrom worked for him and he stayed with it. There must be SOME reason. And the reason is already given in his posting about the folcrom before now

LOL Some of you guys are like groupies

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

Forgive me, but this whole thing is kinda STUPID!


If ship comes back and says he loves his folcrom and had to go back to it, or
IF ship comes back and says he got good results itb and doesnt need to sum externally,


WHAT on God's green Earth will this do for YOUR mixes?

USE what works for YOU. What works for Ship may not be for you!

BUT if you must know what he thinks its already out there. Do a search. The folcrom worked for him and he stayed with it. There must be SOME reason. And the reason is already given in his posting about the folcrom before now

LOL Some of you guys are like groupies

I agree... BUT

1) I honestly love reading Ships posts. There are a limited number of posters here who I will take the word of hands down, he is one. This does not mean that his experience will match mine, it just means that his take is very valuable to me and one I look forward to reading.

2) I believe Slip said that the Folcrom works for him but I think he also said that he has never really done a side by side comparison test. The thing that has me most interested here is to see what his take is on ITB after using the Folcrom for so long.

Your points are valid. No matter what we all need to see if it works for us in our setup, but it is still fun to hear about how people at Ships level perceive things right?

[raal]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

Forgive me, but this whole thing is kinda STUPID!

you are forgiven. well... not really.

[amost]

Originally Posted by belairstudio

Funny I'm late and the party is almost over but......


I did a test today about OTB summing, in a lazy "let's see what happens (again)" manner


Easy:

4 stereo stems to a low budget console, nothing big

Same thing throug the internal software buss

Console channels were alligned, panpots restored in and out. Mixes sounded similar But........


1) analog had extended lowend, much clearer and louder. It was easy to ID instruments in the stereo and freq field. Compressions were more gentle sounding. It was a little darker though...

2) Digital was crisp, and a little brittle. Harsh ind the top end and poor in the lows. Separation was lacking.





This goes only for summing but it was 4 stems on a poor consolle.........multiply this for a 56 channell SSL

So something I heard around these parts was, "if your console costs less than your car mix ITB"

Do you disagree?

[djui5]

Originally Posted by amost

So something I heard around these parts was, "if your console costs less than your car mix ITB"

Do you disagree?

haha! Great quote.

[stealthbalance]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

Forgive me, but this whole thing is kinda STUPID!


If ship comes back and says he loves his folcrom and had to go back to it, or
IF ship comes back and says he got good results itb and doesnt need to sum externally,


WHAT on God's green Earth will this do for YOUR mixes?

USE what works for YOU. What works for Ship may not be for you!

BUT if you must know what he thinks its already out there. Do a search. The folcrom worked for him and he stayed with it. There must be SOME reason. And the reason is already given in his posting about the folcrom before now

LOL Some of you guys are like groupies

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sometimes it is best to remain silent and be thought of as a fool , then to speak aloud and remove all doubt.

s



-------------------------------------------

[amost]

Well I got to thinkin' I got a POS little mixer here so I tried it. I only have a Lynx Two A card with 4 outs but I sent them out in various ways on a Nuendo session I've been attempting to mix. Tried some with some instruments & drums grouped out so I suppose there's actually summing going on ITB before it even got out.
I'm not set up to A/B but the drums sounded pretty good albeit a little noisy..it's a POS & I ain't a professional engineer but it feels good cranking up the knobs & it getting punchier. I could get used to that. It's not a great acoustic track on this tune but that sounded almost pleasing to me. If I had the coin I'd probably consider getting a console - perhaps one day. I like the knobs & the placebo effect seems to work for me.

[JP11]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

WHAT on God's green Earth will this do for YOUR mixes?

USE what works for YOU. What works for Ship may not be for you!

Well with that kind of crazy thinkin', we might as well erase every gosh dang post what's been posted on this whole gosh dang board!

use what works for me...oh brother...that is too funny....

Originally Posted by stealthbalance

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sometimes it is best to remain silent and be thought of as a fool , then to speak aloud and remove all doubt.

s



-------------------------------------------

Well my friend if you are mixing itb or otb and you cannot tell if is working or not then maybe your the FOOLfuuck (It's funny how quickly some guys throw insults around on the internet when they woudnt in person where I could simply slap the shitt outta you and be done with it.)

Originally Posted by JP11

Well with that kind of crazy thinkin', we might as well erase every gosh dang post what's been posted on this whole gosh dang board!

use what works for me...oh brother...that is too funny....

No this is a bit different. Getting a recommendation for a compressor and going to try it out is one thing, but YOU are here waiting for ship to come back and say if he could work as easily itb as with the folcrom

IF you already have the DAW then you know if it's flawed or not according to your EARS.

This is not a piece you dont already have to listen to where you are asking what other people think

This is a different case

[joeq]

Originally Posted by amost

So something I heard around these parts was, "if your console costs less than your car mix ITB"

Do you disagree?

So if I am driving around in a 14 year old junker with 150,000 miles on it...

[JP11]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

No this is a bit different. Getting a recommendation for a compressor and going to try it out is one thing, but YOU are here waiting for ship to come back and say if he could work as easily itb as with the folcrom

IF you already have the DAW then you know if it's flawed or not according to your EARS.

This is not a piece you dont already have to listen to where you are asking what other people think

This is a different case

I don't have a folcrom....

Ship is a well known and respected engineer, his opinion would be interesting...is that so wrong?

If he comes back and says his mix without the Folcrom just collapsed and was complete crap...well that's something to think about as he has proven he knows what he's doing...

If he comes back and says the mix without the Folcrom was just as good, that also is something to think about, as many are concerned that they need to spend thousands on a summing box when maybe it's not that crucial, and effort should be put elsewhere in improving their craft....

These arguments about summing go on and on, and it's all just opinions, but we entertain ourselves with it, and sometimes learn shit, too. No big whoop!

If you're not interested, why are you even reading this thread?

P.S. some people's ears are better and more seasoned than others....