MUlti-tracking in real time over the atlantic

[giraffe]

that would be neat...... however the high-fallooten technology bit of that is beyond me. i'd be surprised if it's never been done before. but maybe not....

[DigitalVictim]

Sorry if this is not an option, but why not just have him play and record MIDI into whatever he has at his disposal, even if it's Garageband. Then you could just import the MIDI tracks to your session and assign and tweak the instruments however you want. No need to do anything in real-time or worry about sync.

Edit:
Ahh I see, you're going to be tracking musicians on your end simultaneously... well there is ISDN but it's expensive if you don't have it, and there is still some small latency. There's this other technology called Source-Connect but I have never used it personally, and I've heard mixed things. It's also a bit pricey.

[Toprale]

Originally Posted by DigitalVictim

Sorry if this is not an option, but why not just have him play and record MIDI into whatever he has at his disposal, even if it's Garageband. Then you could just import the MIDI tracks to your session and assign and tweak the instruments however you want. No need to do anything in real-time or worry about sync.

I would do that if the project was pop rock or any other type of music that doesn't involve real time improvisation/interaction with other musicians..
that's why i'm looking for another solution

[Toprale]

Originally Posted by giraffe

that would be neat...... however the high-fallooten technology bit of that is beyond me. i'd be surprised if it's never been done before. but maybe not....

I know of some studios that actually do it!
but i can't find any info's about it! i' m going crazy!!

[Apollo Soul]

Trans-Atlantic multitracking is just half-stepping.

Inter-Galactic is the new audio frontier.

[lcressy]

Even if your server can stream at the speed of light, the latency will make it not possible I would think ( you are talking about streaming in realtime several thousand miles). I am reminded of how when I watch the news reporters over in the middle east and the anchor person asks a question, then 10 seconds later they answer. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it is possible, not yet however. If it were me, and I understand with jazz, you want everyone playing together live, but I think I would lay down all of the other instruments, send the piano player and mp3 to track to, then he can email you the midi file of his session. Other than that, hire another piano player. Good luck!

[Toprale]

Originally Posted by DigitalVictim

Sorry if this is not an option, but why not just have him play and record MIDI into whatever he has at his disposal, even if it's Garageband. Then you could just import the MIDI tracks to your session and assign and tweak the instruments however you want. No need to do anything in real-time or worry about sync.

Edit:
Ahh I see, you're going to be tracking musicians on your end simultaneously... well there is ISDN but it's expensive if you don't have it, and there is still some small latency. There's this other technology called Source-Connect but I have never used it personally, and I've heard mixed things. It's also a bit pricey.

Oops.. i didn;t see the second part!! man that's great! i'll look into it!!
thanks!

[DigitalVictim]

Here's Source-Connect:

Source Elements / Source-Connect

For ISDN, you need lines installed, so both you and your pianist would need to work from a studio that has an ISDN box. It could get really pricey. We just use it a ton in advertising when recording voice talent in different cities. I'm not sure what the latency is like but it's negligible, at least in this realm.

[Toprale]

wow the price of source connect its pretty high.... for the standard its about 650 bucks.. for the pro version is 1495!!!!! ....

[cdog]

1. $1500 isnt a lot for pro grade hardware or software

2. You still cant record at the same time in 2 different studios without (performance crippling) latency

3. Just send files back and forth like everyone else on the planet does.

[HoRNet]

without a dedicated point to point connection you don't have any guarantee of low latency, and even with dedicated lines (like a direct ISDN or CDN connection) you still have several milliseconds of latency, i've heard people complain about 8/10ms latencies, i've used both CDN and ISDN lines (not for music but working on the internet since 1999 i had seen a lot of technologies) and the best ping times i had was about 15ms with a 2MBit CDN line.

[Toprale]

Originally Posted by cdog

1. $1500 isnt a lot for pro grade hardware or software

2. You still cant record at the same time in 2 different studios without (performance crippling) latency

3. Just send files back and forth like everyone else on the planet does.

thanks for stating the obvious... anyways i'm not being picky here, read the replies and you ll understand why.

[Toprale]

Originally Posted by HoRNet

without a dedicated point to point connection you don't have any guarantee of low latency, and even with dedicated lines (like a direct ISDN or CDN connection) you still have several milliseconds of latency, i've heard people complain about 8/10ms latencies, i've used both CDN and ISDN lines (not for music but working on the internet since 1999 i had seen a lot of technologies) and the best ping times i had was about 15ms with a 2MBit CDN line.

Interesting! i wonder how the guys of source connect claim to be able to do that even with a normal dsl connection.. umm

[dcrigger]

Originally Posted by Toprale

thanks for stating the obvious... anyways i'm not being picky here, read the replies and you ll understand why.

but cdog's item #2 - "You still cant record at the same time in 2 different studios without (performance crippling) latency" - wasn't about you being picky, and whether it stating the obvious or not... it is still undeniably true.

What something like Source-Connect does is give the illusion of realtime interaction but there's still considerable time lag (latency) involved - no big deal for "one-way" interaction - but you're wanting to do "two-way" interaction, which simply smacks you headlong into the realities of physics that no illusion is going to fix.

Basically with "one way" interaction - which would your piano player overdubbing remotely to your DAW in puesdo "real-time" - what happens is: you play and on your end you DAW waits - while the signal goes to him, he plays along, its recorded and sent back to your DAW - when it finally arrives, your DAW starts playing it's tracks along with his track.... puesdo "real-time".

But attempted to do this "two way" changes the requirements entirely - as neither side can send their data until the first side has played their notes supposedly while listening to notes played by second side that haven't even been sent yet.

If I'm not mistaken most "one-way" achieve a great deal of their illusion of speed by pre-sending the files that the remote talent will be overdubbing to - so that the only, yet still considerable, delay is waiting for the remote signal/stream to reach the monitoring location.

I completely get the musical reasons why you'd like/need to do it this way - but I'm afraid it is just not possible. In fact, I don't think so even with hi-speed "direct connect" lines going both ways. The timing has to be inside such a small window to be of any use to you performance-wise.

Honestly - short of getting everyone in the same space - you're only choice will be to create the illusion of collective interaction through means of overdubbing - which I can you from experience if approached and executed with care and creativity can very much work - on even the most loose, free, avante garde of projects. I know, as I've made it work many times. Simply put, you just can't it fall into sounding "overdubbed".

Anyway, best of luck with your project,

David