Q. to John Paterno or others: Froom/Blake ac. guitars

[recky]

Hi,

for years I've been trying to nail the acoustic guitar sound that I hear on a lot of Mitchell Froom/Tchad Blake productions of the mid-90s (and later). I'm a great fan of these guys' work, and invariably, everytime I study the back catalogue of an artist I like a lot, at least one of their works was produced by Mitchell Froom, often engineered by Tchad Blake. frequently, John Paterno was involved, too.

Typical examples of the sound I'm after can be found on Elvis Costello's "Brutal Youth" album and the Finn Brothers' two records, as well as Neil Finn's solo work. The acoustic guitar sound sort of focuses on the metallic and wooden qualities of the guitars used (independent of guitar model/make), as opposed to the hi-fi, air plus bottom end sound. The sheen is in the high-mids rather than the very top end, slightly metallic and low-fi, but not obviously so. Strumming cuts through a minimalist but very fat mix like a hot knife through butter.

I've tried getting there using EQ, but it doesn't work; it makes the guitars sound brittle. I've used all sorts of mics, preamps and guitars and still haven't got it down, although I feel it's in no small part to do with the recording chain, perhaps plus a subtle amount of parallel processing during mixing.

If John Paterno reads this, he will most certainly be the one who could answer this question - it's been bugging me for years! I'd really appreciate it.

As well as an engineer/producer, first and foremost I'm a singer-songwriter and have been trying to achieve this seemingly simple yet unattainable (to me, at least) sound for a long time, because it's exactly what's needed for my own music. Perhaps, John or others could shed some light on this? I'd bet my bottom euro that it's dead simple once you know how to do it...

Thanks very much in advance,

Recky

[Blast9]

Yeah.. mee too!

I've been listening to Bonnie Raitt and Sheryl Crow recently.

[paterno]

Originally Posted by recky

for years I've been trying to nail the acoustic guitar sound that I hear on a lot of Mitchell Froom/Tchad Blake productions of the mid-90s (and later).

Typical examples of the sound I'm after can be found on Elvis Costello's "Brutal Youth" album and the Finn Brothers' two records, as well as Neil Finn's solo work. The acoustic guitar sound sort of focuses on the metallic and wooden qualities of the guitars used (independent of guitar model/make), as opposed to the hi-fi, air plus bottom end sound. The sheen is in the high-mids rather than the very top end, slightly metallic and low-fi, but not obviously so. Strumming cuts through a minimalist but very fat mix like a hot knife through butter.

Hey Recky --

A lot of what Tchad does is unique to him -- I worked with him for several years and do a horrible Tchad imitation!! It's just how he hears it. There really is no one quite like Tchad out there.

That said, a KM 84 is good place to start -- pointed at the neck around the 12th fret or so. A lavalier mic taped into sound hole sometimes if the artist was singing and playing at the same time. And sometimes in conjuction with the KM84. I'm not sure what he used on the particular albums you mentioned above, but at Sound Factory it was always the console's API pre and 550A EQ, with the mics bussed to an LA-3a right before tape.

Pretty simple, as you said. A great sounding guitar also helps tremendously !!

Good luck and I hope this helps...

Cheers,
John

[zarembo]

[quote=paterno...A lavalier mic taped into sound hole sometimes if the artist was singing and playing at the same time. And sometimes in conjuction with the KM84...[/QUOTE]

Hey John, can you elaborate a little more on this lav in the soundhole?
positioning?

any more details would be sweet!

thank you so much.

[paterno]

Originally Posted by zarembo

Hey John, can you elaborate a little more on this lav in the soundhole?
positioning?

any more details would be sweet!

thank you so much.

Literally just tape the mic so the element sits [suspended] over the sound hole. From the bottom is best. i've done it with all kinds of lavs, including cardioids and omnis. You have to EQ them a bit because they can get boomy on the low end, but it's an interesting sound.

Cheers,
John

[studjo]

you got a pic of it????



Thanks John for all your insight



Jo

[recky]

Originally Posted by studjo

you got a pic of it????



Thanks John for all your insight



Jo

Yeah, thanks a lot, John!

Recky

[neve1073]

A great Froom production which I will listen to till the day I die is "Mirror Blue" by Richard Thompson.

John, do you know anything about this particular session? Eg, acoustic gtr signal path, etc.

[recky]

Originally Posted by neve1073

A great Froom production which I will listen to till the day I die is "Mirror Blue" by Richard Thompson.

Oh, that's one I don't know!

Recently, I put Crowded House's "Woodface" on for the first time in years, and was really impressed. I had remembered it to be a lot more "commercial" sounding than it really is! It is most definitely the starting point of what was to become "the Froom/Blake" sound. And if I remember correctly, John (Paterno), you were cutting your teeth at the time, assisting Tchad in the making of the album???

To me, "Woodface" is a timeless classic, I'm glad I got it out again; it'll be on heavy rotation for a while...

For anyone interested in more early Froom-produced singer-Songwriter work, check out Dave Dobbyn's "Lament for the Numb" (1993). Dave's my favourite singer and songwriter; unfortunately, he's largely unknown outside his native New Zealand, where he has been a superstar, a legend, for thirty years. John, did you work on this album, too?

Cheers,

Recky

[recky]

Spent a couple of hours messing around recording acoustic guitar and feel obliged to report that I've almost nailed it! I took a Russian-made Oktava MK-012 (with preamp mod), an API 512c (driven just a bit harder) and a touch of ADL1000 - nearly there! It's all about mic placement and the growl of the preamp/compressor combination. An LA3A would give me more of that mid-range thing I'm still missing. In the mix I'd love to try an API 550a. Must get that lunchbox filled up...

After not having used the Oktava for a while I'm really impressed with it again...

Thanks again, John!

Recky

[paterno]

Originally Posted by studjo

you got a pic of it????

Thanks John for all your insight

Jo

No pics, but it is dead simple, as I described above.

John

[paterno]

Originally Posted by recky

Quote:
Originally Posted by neve1073
A great Froom production which I will listen to till the day I die is "Mirror Blue" by Richard Thompson.

Oh, that's one I don't know!

Recently, I put Crowded House's "Woodface" on for the first time in years, and was really impressed. I had remembered it to be a lot more "commercial" sounding than it really is! It is most definitely the starting point of what was to become "the Froom/Blake" sound. And if I remember correctly, John (Paterno), you were cutting your teeth at the time, assisting Tchad in the making of the album???

To me, "Woodface" is a timeless classic, I'm glad I got it out again; it'll be on heavy rotation for a while...

For anyone interested in more early Froom-produced singer-Songwriter work, check out Dave Dobbyn's "Lament for the Numb" (1993). Dave's my favourite singer and songwriter; unfortunately, he's largely unknown outside his native New Zealand, where he has been a superstar, a legend, for thirty years. John, did you work on this album, too?

Cheers,

Recky

I missed 'Woodface', but started with those guys not too long after that. Los Lobos' 'Kiko' was my first full record with them. That was the fall of '91. Yes, I worked on Richard Thompson's and Dave Dobbyn's records. For mirror Blue acoustic sound was largely the same idea as i mentioned above. King of Bohemia was a single mic on the acoustic and sung into Tchad's Neumann head mic at the same time. Listen to it in headphones -- it's pretty cool.

I don't remember too much about Dave's record, other than he was a cool guy --every once in a while i get Lament for the Numb or Whaling floating through my head. I may have been around just for a few overdubs and mixing. They may have recorded that one in New Zealand or Australia.

Cheers,
John

[vodka gimli]

Kiko. What an album that is. "Saint Behind The Glass"...sorta describes Tchad and Mitchell, I guess! I envy anyone who was there to hear it first hand.

Los Lobos must certainly rank as one of the great American rock bands of all time. Great songs, vocals and players. Froom/Blake are two of my favotires. Crowded House's "Into Temptation" is sublime.