OTB mixing question...

[absrec]

I have a question about mixing through a console. Gain structure, more specifically. Most of my favorite mixers mix on an SSL which I know has a tone in and of it self. But my question is, how different is it to go through a console with the faders all at unity vs. going through individual channels (which obviously requires more outs and involves less summing). I know there has to be a difference. I just wanted to get some opinions on the subject.

I mix in ProTools using the "summing box" method. What I mean is that I have a Mackie 32.8 that I go out through. I use only line amps meaning, I don't use any console eqs. I send everything out through stereo pairs:

Drums and perc L-R
Bass, keys L-R
Gtrs L-R
Vox L-R

I use converters 9-16 for inserts: Outboard comps, eqs, et cetera. I send the output into my Alan Smart C1 and then back through my AD8000 to a stereo aux in PT. I set the output of that aux to converters 15-16 and that goes to the external input of my master section. This is the best I've come up with for my particular setup.

Let me just say that I don't want this to turn into some kind of a "Mackie sux" thread. I know Mackies aren't the best but they certainly aren't the worst. Plus, that aspect of what I'm saying has little to do with my question.

My point is, I am going to buy another console this year. I really am leaning towards a custom Daking 1112. If robmix wouldn't mind chiming in, that would be great. I know he owns one and was trained by some great people, including one of my favorites, CLA. I've read that a big part of CLA's sound is how he hard he hits his desk. Would it produce similar results if you ran each stereo pair out at different levels and then trimmed accordingly with the faders? What I mean is hit the line amps harder or softer depending on whats going through that set of outs (for example, drums and gtrs might run hotter, vocals and bass might benefit from more headroom) and then put faders to zero on the 2-buss meters with a signal gen. Hopefully, noone will view this as a dumb question. Thanks in advance for any and all input.

Aaron

[godcity]

hmmm... that sounds like kind of a long convoluted signal path with unneccesary AD and DA conversions. since you have 16 outs and a 32 channel console, why not just break things up a little more inside protools?

when i'm mixing, i only use protools as a recorder and editor. i set all the PT faders at zero (except where there's automation) for minimal computer math. then i send tracks out through individual outputs from PT. the individual outputs go through outboard then into the tape returns of the console. then i set the fader levels, print to 1/2", and voila... a mix.

faders are just passive attenuators, so i wouldn't worry too much about what they are doing to the sound. and if you want to experiment with gain staging, feeding the input of the console at different levels, you can just trim the output of your outboard gear as opposed to riding faders in PT.

so in this process, there are only 2 AD's and 2 DA's. AD 1 is one the way into PT during tracking, DA 1 is on the way out in mixing. AD 2 is in mastering, and DA 2 is listening to the finished product.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by absrec

I've read that a big part of CLA's sound is how he hard he hits his desk. Would it produce similar results if you ran each stereo pair out at different levels and then trimmed accordingly with the faders? What I mean is hit the line amps harder or softer depending on whats going through that set of outs (for example, drums and gtrs might run hotter, vocals and bass might benefit from more headroom) and then put faders to zero on the 2-buss meters with a signal gen. Hopefully, noone will view this as a dumb question. Thanks in advance for any and all input.

Aaron

CLA is looking to get in the sweetspot of his SSL.

Also on an E console how you hit the rails sounds different than a G or J/K.


But how you hit it and how the SSL sums it contributes to its signature.


Each console is different.


A Daking may not sound the same if you try to do the same thing.


I know on a 9000J it definitely reacts differently.


On the second question you kinda lost me.

[u b k]

my experience with consoles is that the more individual things get their own channel, the more the mojo of the console i hear.

iow, these two scenarios ---

1) drum sub from pt into channels 1-2, hit input and/or summing bus at Xdb

2) kick, snare, overs on their own channels, together hitting inputs differently but still hitting summing bus at Xdb

--- the result is NOT the same. #2 has more console love. i think that's what you were asking.

getting the distortions on top of every little sound, in just the right amounts, is what i love about desks. my desk has trannies on every input; maybe i want the kick hitting one really hard, the snare not so hard, and the overs not hard at all. these decisions matter, they affect how the eq gets saturated, how the mix bus reacts, how any inserted compressor responds, etc...

i could go on, but only because i'm fanatical.

get the daking, they sound unbelievable, and all will be clear in an instant.


gregoire
del ubik

[absrec]

Originally Posted by u b i k

getting the distortions on top of every little sound, in just the right amounts, is what i love about desks. my desk has trannies on every input; maybe i want the kick hitting one really hard, the snare not so hard, and the overs not hard at all. these decisions matter, they affect how the eq gets saturated, how the mix bus reacts, how any inserted compressor responds, etc...

gregoire
del ubik

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

CLA is looking to get in the sweetspot of his SSL.

Also on an E console how you hit the rails sounds different than a G or J/K.

Thrill, what do you mean by "hit the rails"?

Sorry if I lost anyone. This is what I'm talking about. Finding the sweet spot. I guess I've just never known what to listen for because I've never studied under an old school analog guy.

Keep 'em coming, folks!

Thanks!

[absrec]

Bump, ya'll!

[lawrence_o]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I know on a 9000J it definitely reacts differently.

Awesome dude! Did you have a 4000 before? If so, is the difference in sound huge? I'd like to get my hands on a 9000J as well, second hand that is...


Regards
Lawrence.

[robmix]

absrec, I've been mixing three different ways on the Daking. #1 - I tried the "summing box" approach before the console was finished, i.e. 16 faders at unity sending out stereo pairs from the DAW the way I imagine most guys do who have a Dangerous 2-bus or the equivalent. I've said in other threads that my clients and I were completely happy with my ITB stuff so the Daking was better/different but not night and day. #2 was an extended summing method, all the faders still at unity but breaking out more channels. I used the DAW summing for just backgrounds and a couple percussion things. This was a bit more obvious, bigger, more clarity. But I would say most people would think it was simply two different engineers if they heard the difference. Method #3 is the big change - breaking everything out on individual channels, getting the static mix with the console faders and using DAW automation and gainstaging to hit the console in just the right place. This yielded the most dramatic change. This hybrid method is the coolest because you get so many places to optimize the gain, hit compressors and line amps harder or softer, and drive the stereo bus in different ways. Obviously it takes longer and gets harder to recall but the results are worth it. I'm still adjusting my methods of working after being console-less for 6 years.

Originally Posted by absrec

I've read that a big part of CLA's sound is how he hard he hits his desk. Would it produce similar results if you ran each stereo pair out at different levels and then trimmed accordingly with the faders? What I mean is hit the line amps harder or softer depending on whats going through that set of outs (for example, drums and gtrs might run hotter, vocals and bass might benefit from more headroom) and then put faders to zero on the 2-buss meters with a signal gen.

Maybe. Chris rides the master fader a little lower whereas someone like Swedien always keeps the master fader all the way at the top. Chris uses the Red 3 on the master and Swedien uses no compression, so their gain staging is completely different. Chris will mess with the SSL line trims to make sure he's hitting his channel compressors in the right spot and not riding the channel faders too high or low. Swedien rarely touched the line trims. He would do massive offline trims on the SSL to get in the sweet spot. Sometimes you could really hear it open up after a trim.

[robmix]

Oh yeah, I come off the console into the Alan Smart C2, then into the HEDD using the process and A/D convertors back into PT.

[absrec]

Originally Posted by robmix

Method #3 is the big change - breaking everything out on individual channels, getting the static mix with the console faders and using DAW automation and gainstaging to hit the console in just the right place. This yielded the most dramatic change. This hybrid method is the coolest because you get so many places to optimize the gain, hit compressors and line amps harder or softer, and drive the stereo bus in different ways.

Chris will mess with the SSL line trims to make sure he's hitting his channel compressors in the right spot and not riding the channel faders too high or low. Swedien rarely touched the line trims. He would do massive offline trims on the SSL to get in the sweet spot. Sometimes you could really hear it open up after a trim.

Yes! This is the difference I'm looking for. The problem is I don't yet understand it. I may have unknowningly applied this concept in my mixes before, but I wouldn't know how I did it. Are there any calibration tests or listening tests that can help you find the sweet spot of your console? What do you mean by gain staging? I did a search on this forum and I heard thrillfactor talk about "pain staking gain staging" in ProTools. I've heard CLA say that "every console has a sweet spot. But on digital, the sweet spot is much smaller, but it's still there." I feel like this is something I'm missing.

I feel like a putz for coming up in this day and age where any idiot can buy ProTools and be an "engineer/producer". I still believe that it is the finer points that seperate the men from the boys.

Are there any good resources for learning these things? Is it possible to explain it?

[u b k]

Originally Posted by absrec

Are there any calibration tests or listening tests that can help you find the sweet spot of your console? What do you mean by gain staging?

the only listening tests are the mixes you do. finding the sweet spot on a desk is no different than on a woman; all it takes it courage, devotion, and your undivided attention, over and over and over. perform, listen, adjust, listen.

gain staging is everything. you can come out of a converter at Xdbfs, and use your input trim on a channel until you hit the channel enough that the fader is close to unity and that's the ballpark for the mix. or, you can push the input trim, and pull back the fader... different sound altogether. or, you can leave the trim as is and push the output of the daw... another different sound.

within the console, this all applies too. how high your faders are that feed the bvox buss, how hot the level hitting the bvox comp, how hot that comes back into the desk. eq is another biggie, fat boosts eat your headroom quick.

all consoles have a limited amount of juice to receive and spit back audio, and they all have their own personalities as you approach, hit, then surpass that limit. learning how much of that juice to use on inputs, on faders, on the master buss, this is part of the learning curve with desks. each one is different, and the music and mix style you bring to the table rounds out the house of variables. some people love 8068's because of how incredibly open they are, and others love them for the way they fold down when hit just the right way.

only one way to learn this stuff, so have fun!


gregoire
del ubik

[absrec]

I messed around with a track this morning. I tried firing hot out of PT and running my faders low and then running my faders all the way up and runnning cold out of PT. I feel like I didn't hear much of a difference. Am I deaf? Is it possible that a Mackie doesn't have much variance in tone depending on how hard or soft you hit the line amps? At times I felt like I might have been hearing a slight difference, but then I thought maybe it was because I new in my brain that I was changing things and consciously looking for a difference. Is it because I wasn't eqing or compressing?

[absrec]

Ok. The last couple of days, I've been puttting my console faders at unity and basically giving my tracks enough gain to sit in the mix but not necessarily printing high at all. A lot of time, peaks would go up to about -14 or -10 on my AD-8000.

Am I crazy for thinking that the tracks are less "constricted" sounding? Like the midrange is clearer. Maybe it's some sort of placebo effect.

[Yutaka]

Have you tried going from D/A to the insert returns on the console? Sometimes you can get a better sound by not going through the line amps....

[GPl]

Originally Posted by u b i k

the only listening tests are the mixes you do. finding the sweet spot on a desk is no different than on a woman; all it takes it courage, devotion, and your undivided attention, over and over and over. perform, listen, adjust, listen.
gregoire
del ubik

Ok, I just called up my girlfreind, got a bottle of wine, the flowers, ect. What am I listening for again? j/k

absrec, you're not crazy. Just keep at it till you find your sweet spot. Keep experimenting.