Space Ghosts

vodka gimli · 14th February 2006

I'm mixing an album and having difficulty giving each instrument it's own space. I know the theory of "space equals EQ and reverb/echo/ambience, but I still seem to get a "stereo panned wash" rather than distinct elements. The arrangements are not that busy: electric bass, drums, or 2 electric guitars, 1 or two acoustics, the occasional fiddle and minimal percussion with a female lead vocal. You can hear a portion of it at Soundclick: Good Samaritan .

I have tightened up the drum sound a bit since I posted this mix, but I would like to get more separation. I am using Cubase SX2 and a host of Waves plugs, Mackie HR824s.

I am looking for specific things to try, if anyone can give me a few tips, it would be appreciated!

vodka gimli · 14th February 2006

Maybe this will help... the singer has cleavage....!?

bluesman714 · 14th February 2006

Try something that lifts & separates!

vodka gimli · 14th February 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesman714

Try something that lifts & separates!

LOL

dbbubba · 14th February 2006

The drums are fairly ambient and panned really wide.
The girls vocal is pretty far out front and combined with the drum sound things sound somewhat disconnected.
The toms sound too low in level with the rest of the kit as well.

I will tell you this...

Beyond the overall mix you have have more of a problem with the drummer's playing.
I am pretty liberal in what I'll accept rythmically unless there is no "musical logic" and I'll have to tell you that I don't get what the drummer is doing.
He needs to study groove before he plays such open stuff.

I feel like Simon on American Star Idol Search.
They ain't going to Holywood!

Danny Brown

OVERNIGHT · 14th February 2006

FWIW, I don't hate the drum groove. I get it.

But they are pretty far out in front. I think you're too close to it. The mix ain't bad. Stuff is pretty compressed and safe sounding, compartmentalized, but I'm not hearing too much fighting between the instruments other than maybe the elec and acoustic guitars sound like they're on top of one another. But I'm looking for the fight, dig? I might put a bit of ass back in the bass and the kit. It sounds like you've been working on it, twiling lots of nobs... if you know what I mean. What I do when I hit a wall is pull everything off of everything and start over by doing the drums really different than the last way I did them. Everything else changes acordingly. Go more raw. Sorry if this doesn't help much.

u b k · 14th February 2006

well, hmmm... first of all, you did a great job tracking. the cleanliness of your tracks may be your biggest enemy here.

as i listen, i'm hearing the opposite of what you are. namely, things are *too* separated, everything is a bit too clean and (as dbbubba noted) disconnected.

it sounds like everything has a different flavor of verb on it. the drums have an inexpensive lexiconish crack, the guits have a smallish (but nice) room, and the voice has a buried, at times non-existant plate. overall, the drums are wet, the guitars are roomy, and her voice is dry.

personally, i love the space around the guitars, and would move the other instruments into that area. the drums would be dryer, fatter, and less 80's-crisp, and her voice would have more obvious compression, to give the piece more edge.

on another level, the arrangement isn't engaging me, something about the ebb and flow doesn't feel organic, it feels staged. i want more of a live band vibe, this sounds like it was multitracked and overdubbed, produced rather than captured.

i would dirty everything up, personally. small layers of tranny and tube distortions everywhere, bring the whole scene forward towards me, because something about what i'm hearing isn't drawing me in. the lack of tape is part of it for me.

this post is a bit more critical than my typical jaunt, and it's because i hear something really good in what you're working on, and i have the urge to push you. don't be so safe in the mixing, the song is begging for a little more insanity, more urgency. when the agt comes in after 'cure', make it hit. right now, it just politely takes a seat. when she sings 'making time', throw the delay up and make it explode. when someone sings 'i am not your savior', i REALLY need the music behind it to reinforce that establishing of boundaries in the midst of invitation. this woman is opening herself while clarifying the terms. make sure you get that emotional statement, and make sure the whole production is geared towards making the listener get that.

cubase is an arsenal. use it!

gregoire
del ubik

vodka gimli · 14th February 2006

Wow. Thanks, guys. Amazing what a little cleave'll get ya!

I feel I'm on the right track, I did a lot of songwriter demos, but this is my first real big production - tracking/mixing/playing guitar/producing, so I am not fishing for compliments, simply a straight and brutal critique from my (hopefully) future peers. I appreciate ALL of the input. I'm a guitar player with a bunch of recording equipment and a strong desire to learn how to do it right.

I tracked it on a Tascam MX-2424 with a pawn shop Pearl Export kit. MXL V67 overheads, SM57 on snare Sennheiser 408s on toms, Shure 52 on kick.

I love the drum groove because he's playing a song, not just a beat, but tastes certainly differ. Bass was a vintage Kay into an MP20.

The bass and drums were tracked with a scratch acoustic (long gone) and that is the scratch vocal, no fixes. I replaced the acoustic(s) and used an AC-30 setup on Amplitube for the electrics. Percussion is all real and overdubbed - djembe, chains and keys, tambourine, sleigh bells.

The only toob/dirt plugs I have are the T-racks and Magneto...any preferences?

The 'verbs are the Waves Rverb Small Room with a portion of a Medium plate added to the snare. No room mics were used, unfortunately. The vocal is on the same Medium plate.

I did bring the drum pans closer together more in the 50 - 60 range than the 65-70 on that mix. This is the most "rock" tune on the record, the rest being pretty traditional country/ambient spooky chillbilly Appalachian stuff...the singer/songwriter is from East Tennessee.

She came into my studio to do a demo two years ago.

We got married last October.

u b k · 15th February 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by vodka gimli

No room mics were used, unfortunately.

this is probably one of the big things that's bugging me. is your tracking room separate from the mixspace? if so, i'd recommend setting up a couple of speakers in there and mic'ing the room, create your own good old fashioned reverb chamber. bill putnam was no fool! send the drums back out, maybe a little vocal, touch of guitars. tuck it all back into the mix.

that will give you a lot of glue and go a long way towards recreating the band-in-a-room thing. assuming, that is, you want that vibe.

you might also enjoy setting up one or two distortion busses, with generous munge, to send things to. again, selective eq'ing and super-subtle tucking in are your friends.

good luck!

gregoire
del ubik

vodka gimli · 15th February 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by u b i k

this is probably one of the big things that's bugging me. is your tracking room separate from the mixspace? if so, i'd recommend setting up a couple of speakers in there and mic'ing the room, create your own good old fashioned reverb chamber. bill putnam was no fool! send the drums back out, maybe a little vocal, touch of guitars. tuck it all back into the mix.

that will give you a lot of glue and go a long way towards recreating the band-in-a-room thing. assuming, that is, you want that vibe.

you might also enjoy setting up one or two distortion busses, with generous munge, to send things to. again, selective eq'ing and super-subtle tucking in are your friends.

good luck!

gregoire
del ubik

Alas, the tracking room is no more...it is being converted into hotel rooms! I have moved all of my stuff into my house, which is a 1961 ranch with hardwood floors and some fairly large rooms, so I might give it a go anyways.

I tried to create a "Grunge Drums" group in Cubase, but it would not allow me to insert the distortion on the Group, so I duplicated the "drums" folder and inserted "Da Tube" set to medium warmth on the kick, snare, toms and overheads. It seems to have added a lot of balls to the kit, for sure. I moved the vocals and drums closer to the space the guitars are in (a medium plate) and things are tightening up nicely.

You mentioned getting an explosive echo on the "...making time" lyric. I agree that would be appropriate, but how do I make it "explode".

Thanks again for the tips...you obviously have some educated ears to nail all of my problems, including the size and type of reverbs...I am not quite that astutely analytical yet...but you have helped immensely.

cdog · 15th February 2006

Your mix sounds good, I would resist fussing over it too much.

The only thing that sticks out to me is the vocal is a little too loud and bright for my taste.

Rock on, I really like what the drummer is doing.

u b k · 16th February 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by vodka gimli

I moved the vocals and drums closer to the space the guitars are in (a medium plate) and things are tightening up nicely.

You mentioned getting an explosive echo on the "...making time" lyric. I agree that would be appropriate, but how do I make it "explode".

excellent, i'm glad it's coming together. it's tough to be a player/writer, engineer, and producer. something usually suffers, but it can be done and done well. outside perspective, like you've gotten here, is essential.

as for the delay, be heavyhanded with the feedback and automate the send to push just the word(s) you want into the delay, and automate the fader on the aux to push the level generously at just the right moment, and fade away appropriately.

personally, i like long delays (1/4 or 1/2 notes) for that effect. if you have a tape delay simulator, it might be cool to have it feedback into chaos.

cdog makes a good point, take some time to experiment and have fun, and learn too, but don't get so lost in the tweaking process that it never gets done. your bandmates are a good reference for this, let them keep you in check.

enjoy!

gregoire
del ubik

vodka gimli · 16th February 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by u b i k

excellent, i'm glad it's coming together. it's tough to be a player/writer, engineer, and producer. something usually suffers, but it can be done and done well. outside perspective, like you've gotten here, is essential.

as for the delay, be heavyhanded with the feedback and automate the send to push just the word(s) you want into the delay, and automate the fader on the aux to push the level generously at just the right moment, and fade away appropriately.

personally, i like long delays (1/4 or 1/2 notes) for that effect. if you have a tape delay simulator, it might be cool to have it feedback into chaos.

cdog makes a good point, take some time to experiment and have fun, and learn too, but don't get so lost in the tweaking process that it never gets done. your bandmates are a good reference for this, let them keep you in check.

enjoy!

gregoire
del ubik

Cool. I'll give it a try tomorrow after my ears get a rest. I don't have any bandmates except my wife. The drummer, Angelo Collura, and the bassist, Steve Mackey, are highly regarded Nashville session players.

They played great and are old friends, so it might have more of a band vibe - which is great - and I certainly want to hire them to play local gigs, I think the drums are brilliant - it's not that he "needs to learn to groove before he can play so 'free'"...he's so far beyond learning to groove that his 'groove' is free.

vodka gimli · 17th February 2006

Well, I made some changes, dirtied up the drums and guitars and bass a little, tweaked the vocal and put a splash of echo at the end of the bridge. I'm pretty much putting this one to bed...thanks again to all who opined.

The Soundclick link in the original post is updated to play the new mix.

14th February 2006	#1
vodka gimli Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 593 Thread Starter	Space Ghosts I'm mixing an album and having difficulty giving each instrument it's own space. I know the theory of "space equals EQ and reverb/echo/ambience, but I still seem to get a "stereo panned wash" rather than distinct elements. The arrangements are not that busy: electric bass, drums, or 2 electric guitars, 1 or two acoustics, the occasional fiddle and minimal percussion with a female lead vocal. You can hear a portion of it at Soundclick: Good Samaritan . I have tightened up the drum sound a bit since I posted this mix, but I would like to get more separation. I am using Cubase SX2 and a host of Waves plugs, Mackie HR824s. I am looking for specific things to try, if anyone can give me a few tips, it would be appreciated! __________________ "Directly or indirectly, all questions connected with this subject must come for decision to the ear, as the organ of hearing; and from it there can be no appeal." — Lord Rayleigh

14th February 2006	#2
vodka gimli Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 593 Thread Starter	Maybe this will help... the singer has cleavage....!? Attached Thumbnails

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14th February 2006	#3
bluesman714 Gear maniac Joined: Apr 2005 Location: Little Rock, Ar. Posts: 282	Try something that lifts & separates!

14th February 2006	#5
dbbubba Banned Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 7,099	The drums are fairly ambient and panned really wide. The girls vocal is pretty far out front and combined with the drum sound things sound somewhat disconnected. The toms sound too low in level with the rest of the kit as well. I will tell you this... Beyond the overall mix you have have more of a problem with the drummer's playing. I am pretty liberal in what I'll accept rythmically unless there is no "musical logic" and I'll have to tell you that I don't get what the drummer is doing. He needs to study groove before he plays such open stuff. I feel like Simon on American Star Idol Search. They ain't going to Holywood! Danny Brown

14th February 2006	#6
OVERNIGHT Gear addict Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 437	FWIW, I don't hate the drum groove. I get it. But they are pretty far out in front. I think you're too close to it. The mix ain't bad. Stuff is pretty compressed and safe sounding, compartmentalized, but I'm not hearing too much fighting between the instruments other than maybe the elec and acoustic guitars sound like they're on top of one another. But I'm looking for the fight, dig? I might put a bit of ass back in the bass and the kit. It sounds like you've been working on it, twiling lots of nobs... if you know what I mean. What I do when I hit a wall is pull everything off of everything and start over by doing the drums really different than the last way I did them. Everything else changes acordingly. Go more raw. Sorry if this doesn't help much.

14th February 2006	#7
u b k Gear Guru Joined: Oct 2004 Location: The Land of Sunshine Posts: 11,294	well, hmmm... first of all, you did a great job tracking. the cleanliness of your tracks may be your biggest enemy here. as i listen, i'm hearing the opposite of what you are. namely, things are too separated, everything is a bit too clean and (as dbbubba noted) disconnected. it sounds like everything has a different flavor of verb on it. the drums have an inexpensive lexiconish crack, the guits have a smallish (but nice) room, and the voice has a buried, at times non-existant plate. overall, the drums are wet, the guitars are roomy, and her voice is dry. personally, i love the space around the guitars, and would move the other instruments into that area. the drums would be dryer, fatter, and less 80's-crisp, and her voice would have more obvious compression, to give the piece more edge. on another level, the arrangement isn't engaging me, something about the ebb and flow doesn't feel organic, it feels staged. i want more of a live band vibe, this sounds like it was multitracked and overdubbed, produced rather than captured. i would dirty everything up, personally. small layers of tranny and tube distortions everywhere, bring the whole scene forward towards me, because something about what i'm hearing isn't drawing me in. the lack of tape is part of it for me. this post is a bit more critical than my typical jaunt, and it's because i hear something really good in what you're working on, and i have the urge to push you. don't be so safe in the mixing, the song is begging for a little more insanity, more urgency. when the agt comes in after 'cure', make it hit. right now, it just politely takes a seat. when she sings 'making time', throw the delay up and make it explode. when someone sings 'i am not your savior', i REALLY need the music behind it to reinforce that establishing of boundaries in the midst of invitation. this woman is opening herself while clarifying the terms. make sure you get that emotional statement, and make sure the whole production is geared towards making the listener get that. cubase is an arsenal. use it! gregoire del ubik

15th February 2006	#11
cdog Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 3,559 3 Reviews written	Your mix sounds good, I would resist fussing over it too much. The only thing that sticks out to me is the vocal is a little too loud and bright for my taste. Rock on, I really like what the drummer is doing.

17th February 2006	#14
vodka gimli Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 593 Thread Starter	Well, I made some changes, dirtied up the drums and guitars and bass a little, tweaked the vocal and put a splash of echo at the end of the bridge. I'm pretty much putting this one to bed...thanks again to all who opined. The Soundclick link in the original post is updated to play the new mix.