My First Patch Bay

[not like this]

My recent purchase of a Folcrom has put me in the position where I have to use a patch bay. I put off a patch bay as long as possible because I don't solder and I don't have a lot of real world experience with one.

Everything I know about engineering I have taught myself, so before I dump $500 into cables and a patchbay, I'd really appreciate it if someone who knows what they are doing could look at my plans and tell me if I'm on the right track.

So what I want to know is:

1. Does my patch bay plan make sense?
2. Is this the right patch bay for me?
3. Are these the right cables to buy?

Question 1... Does my patch bay plan make sense?

My setup is fairly simple at this point, but I want to leave myself some flexibility so that I don't have a lot of rewiring to do as my system grows. Right now I have a MOTU HD192 Interface, an OSA Rack with 4 Preamps in it, and a Folcrom. I will be adding 4 more preamps as well as a few channels of outboard EQ and Compression somewhere in the not so distant future.

Here is my plan for the patch bay. Is this logical? I really have very little experience using patch bays. Yellow=Normalled Green=Isolated



Question 2... Is this the right patch bay for me?

Since I don't solder, I was looking at the Signex Isopatch 48pt. TRS/DSUB Patchbay on Redco's website. Is this a solid unit? How do I adjust which channels are normalled? How many DSUB connectors are there on the unit? I would assume 3 each for I/O (6 total) but the picture on the Redco site makes it look like there are 6 each?

Question 3... Are these the right cables to buy?

If I go with that bay, I am going to use Redco's build your own cable page to wire it up. I know this is very basic, but I don't want to screw this up.

Here are the cables I'm looking at:
2 channel female xlr --> Dsub (1 foot) For Folcrom Outs
4 channel female xlr --> Dsub (10 feet) For Mics Outs from Live Room
4 channel female xlr --> Dsub (2 feet) For Mic Pre Outs
(2) 4 channel male xlr --> Dsub (2 feet) For Mic Pre Inputs

My MOTU outputs 1-2 are going to be directly wired into my central station and 3-12 are going directly into the Folcrom.

I'd love some guidence from the enlightened! Thanks.

[absrec]

Ok. The way you do TT bays is this. First rule is "outs over ins". Not sure how it got started, but it makes perfect sense. So the top row is all outs. Mic outs, pre outs, converter outs, et cetera. And the bottom row is pre ins, converters ins, outboard ins, et cetera. If you mess around with it enough, it starts to make sense.
As far as your layout, I would start at the left and work my way to the right. I see that you're starting out with pre outs and converter ins. And then somewhere in the middle, you have mic outs and pre ins. I would do more of a "start to finish" approach. But maybe that's just me.

As far as the DSUB patchbays, never used them but they sound like you can't lose. Probably not the cheapest. I solder my own bays but that's just because I'm a glutton for punishment. There is no soldering required on DSUB bays as far as I can tell.

I think the DSUB bays require you to get snakes. On the 96 point bays, for instance, you would have 12 (?) DSUB connections on the back. One per group of eight. Each DSUB will most likely have a snake with whatever connectors you fancy. This is my best understanding. So if you had an area of the bay that only had 2 points used, you'd still have to buy an eight channel DSUB snake and have 6 of the points unused.

Hope this clears things up a little.

[topslakr]

The image is a bit wide but the file size is less then 40k. The gear to be wired is what I have now and my focus has been on the building so please no comments on the quality of gear.. most of it is up for replacement as the money trickles in....

This is what is being wired in:

SoundTracs Solo 16 Channel board
Tascam TSR-8 1/2" 8 Track
Digi 002r
Ada8000 (I know, I know)
My (just ordered) Mic Panels
And a small amount of outboard

TB Ins and outs are a custom talkback system I'm haveing built. You feed it stereo pairs and plug in a mic and you can add talk back to four sets of outputs. I'm having switches put on so I can decide who gets the talkback and who doesn't then It's going to be racked.... Should be great.


N = Fully Normalled
HN = Half Normalled
T = Though

Like I said this is the first time I've built a patchbay larger then 1U and to me it makes perfect sense. I don't have anyone close at hand to take a look at it though and let me know what works and what doesn't, so please feel free. I made it in Open Office's excel like program and then shrunk it down a bit for the
website.. If anyone would like a larger copy let me know.

<html><img src="http://wolfdenrecording.com/PB.GIF"></html>


Robert

[not like this]

Originally Posted by absrec

As far as your layout, I would start at the left and work my way to the right. I see that you're starting out with pre outs and converter ins. And then somewhere in the middle, you have mic outs and pre ins. I would do more of a "start to finish" approach. But maybe that's just me.

Hey, Thanks for taking the time to reply. I guess I should have been more specific in my diagram, but I left the empty space on the bay between the converter ins and mic pre outs because I intend to add additional mic pres within a year or so, and I don't want to have to rewire the whole bay to keep everything organized. So while it may look random at first glance, it is actually just anticipating future expansion.

Your comments did help clear things up for me and at least let me know I'm on the right track. Thank you.

[nathanvacha]

Originally Posted by absrec

Ok. The way you do TT bays is this. First rule is "outs over ins". Not sure how it got started, but it makes perfect sense. So the top row is all outs. Mic outs, pre outs, converter outs, et cetera. And the bottom row is pre ins, converters ins, outboard ins, et cetera. If you mess around with it enough, it starts to make sense.
.

I think that started so you can have your bays normalled and you don't have outputs wired to inputs. i.e. a device that is a continuous loop... it's inefficient because the normals do you no good... you would have to patch everything and i think you can damage gear that way too. maybe i misunderstood you though too...

[topslakr]

Normalled = The signal goes from the top jack to the bottom and is broken with a patch inserted in either jack. Good for mic panels. The signal will flow from top to bottom or vice-versa so you can send phantom power to mics but without having to worry about killing to much else by accident. Anything plugged into either jack will break the connection.

Half-Norm = The signal goes from the top jack to bottom jack and is broken only if you plug something into the bottom. So this one is a good one to use if you might want to make a copy of the signal. Plug into the top jack and get a copy while the audio still flows into the bottom jack.

Through = No signal flow from top to bottom unless you actually patch it in. Great for outboard gear. You plug a cable into the top jack and it feeds the outboard then plug a cable into the bottom jack to send it somewhere else. Nothing passes between.


Am I correct here or way off base? I belive this is correct but it wouldn't be the first time I made a total fool of my self here.....


Robert

[not like this]

Yes that is right.

[AlexLakis]

You must have BOTH connections plugged in in order to break the normal. It IS possible to damage gear with this configuration, and for most people, it just doesn't make sense to begin with. If this is your first patch bay, I would suggest un-normalling your channels. This is usually done by taking off the front face of the bay and flipping the channel boards upsidedown. Outs on top, ins on the bottom is usually the way people have it set up. Left to right, and I'd try to avoid the edges.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

Left to right, and I'd try to avoid the edges.

I am wondering why people are saying that you should avoid the edges (unless you are talking about RF interference or something?). I have never avoided the edges on any bay I have wired and I have never worked with any bay that the edges were skipped? Just wondering is all.

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

I am wondering why people are saying that you should avoid the edges (unless you are talking about RF interference or something?). I have never avoided the edges on any bay I have wired and I have never worked with any bay that the edges were skipped? Just wondering is all.

It's more out of habit (and maybe a little superstition) than anything. I've had channels on patch bays go, as well as channels on mixers and snakes. It's always channel 1 or the last channel (be it 16 or 24 or whatever). Dunno why. Maybe just pure coincidence in my experiences. Maybe the equipment I've worked is trying to emulate that "tape sound."

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

It's more out of habit (and maybe a little superstition) than anything. I've had channels on patch bays go, as well as channels on mixers and snakes. It's always channel 1 or the last channel (be it 16 or 24 or whatever). Dunno why. Maybe just pure coincidence in my experiences. Maybe the equipment I've worked is trying to emulate that "tape sound."

LOL

Got ya!!

[not like this]

Originally Posted by rufus13

3. NO MICROPHONE LEVEL SIGNALS OR PHANTOM POWER INSIDE THE PATCH BAY!

Seriously? Sorry I am going to have to break that one... It's pretty much the entire reason I am getting a patch bay at this point.

[LX3]

Yes, seriously. Phantom power on a patchbay has a habit of destroying things, because of shorts or single-ended power going to places it shouldn't as you plug patch cords in and out. This doesn't happen with plugging and unplugging XLRs, because the right signal always ends up on the right pin - there's never any cross-connection or shorts.

If you want to destroy a Royer 121 or any other ribbon mic, potentially dynamic mics too, putting mic lines through a jack or TT patchbay is a pretty reliable way of doing it.

Don't think "Ah, well, I'll always remember to switch off the phantom before patching anything". The day WILL come when you forget. Or maybe YOU will always remember, but some other engineer or unsuspecting musician won't.

You can always make a patchbay out of XLR connectors, but there's no normalling, so you'd have to use patch cords everywhere. Generally easier to wire studio mic lines directly to the mic pre's or desk inputs, then just plug the mic into a different socket in the studio to "re-patch".

One last suggestion - Make small (8-way?) stagebox type snakes for those times when the wrong mic lines end up in the wrong part of the studio. If micing drums for instance, it's much neater, faster, and less confusing to have a 6m sub-snake with stagebox and 8 x 4-5m mic cables than 8 x 10m cables strung right across the studio floor.

[not like this]

I am primarily getting the patchbay to use with my Folcrom so I don't have to go behind the rack and plug it into my mic pres everytime I want to do a mix. So idea of plugging the mic into different sockets doesn't really work for me. I don't use a console.

Maybe it's just me, but I think it is a major pain in the ass and very unprofessional to flip the rack around, get the flashligh, and start yanking cables in the middle of a session.

Mr. Patchbay says on his FAQ...

QUESTION:
Can I run my phantom-powered microphone signal through my patchbay?

ANSWER
You sure can. However, you will need to strap the grounds together on the channels you want to phantom-power. On the 1/4" patchbays this is no problem soldering a ground bar but, with most bantam jacks it is dificult at best unless you use the punch down style bantam patchbays. With the punch down style bantam patchbays it is very easy to strap the grounds across the punch block.

[absrec]

For the record, I have had TT bays with mic patching for a while. I've had some unexplained things happen. However, last summer I redid my bays the right way. What a difference! I was much more meticulous. I used all Belden 9451, heatshrink, and took my sweet time making it nice. I've got to say that the anomalies have decreased tenfold. Every once in a while something weird happens some but I'm not certain it's my bays anymore. After all there are a lot more than patchbays in my setup.

As far as phantom power, I have my grounds strapped on my mic outs and my preamp ins. Just so I can switch pres easier. Haven't lost a mic yet!

[7 Hz]

RE: Out over In - this works for all console and instrument connections on the bay, but it is NOT the way to wire in outboard. Outboard should always go 'In over Out'. The signal flow is ALWAYS downwards. Think about it.

RE: Phantom - If you are a pu**y, don't do it. If you are carefull, go for it. Otherwise, just hardwire your mic pres and forget about it.

RE: Bantam - this is the professional standard, a quality bantam bay is way better than a 1/4" bay. If you want big connectors, go for GPO jacks.

[topslakr]

Such is my plan thumbsup

[jtienhaara]

Sorry for bumping this slightly old thread, I just got linked to it...

Originally Posted by rufus13

5. TT size plugs and bays are evil. Avoid. Get 1/4 inch TRS bays with a maximum of 2 rows per rack space.

I assume you mean longframe is your preference Rufus, but why the hate-on for bantam/TT? They are small and therefore more difficult to solder... But there are no audible differences, are there?

For me having 144pt in 1U (normal + 1/2 normal bottom row), and using 18" patch cables to plug from row 1 to row 3, are important factors. There's no way I can fit 6 rows of 48pt 1/4" bays in my rack, let alone stretch 18" patch cords between 'em... And the soldering isn't nearly as bad as you would expect, once you've done one bay it gets easy... IMHO.