The path to a good signal path...bad pun I know

[Icetea335]

Hey Everyone,


This isn't really a question about signal flow per say...more so about how to get to where I want to be without having to wait and save up, rob a bank, or take out a huge loan on top of tons of college loans.

Right now I have a digi 003 (I got it before I went into school...actually used one of my college loans to pay for it...shh) and it got the job done for what I needed...emergency ITB mixes when the console at school was booked, and small editing / overdubs.

Now I want to upgrade to bigger things (I used to mix on a 1608, with outboard gear such as the cl1b and la2a, all the 500 eq I could handle etc etc. I felt spoiled.) Now mixing ITB to me (I used to be anti-analog) is easy in terms of routing things and recalls (I don't have to write 20 pages of patches and settings) ... but I miss the way I worked with that set up. Not to mention the sound, while I notice I will not get close to it unless I buy all the gear I want to get as close as possible to the workflow/ sonic similarities.

I have been looking at analog summing and after days of reading, watching, listening and trying not to pull my hair out I have some ideas.


Here's where I want to go: I want to be able to have at least 16 inserts PRE FADER. I usually use at least 10 hardware eqs in my mixes and at least 5-10 compressors, and send a reverb like the Bricasti on an aux. I don't mind mixing LEVELS in the box or pans for that matter, but I don't like inserting things after the faders...so if I did this I would have to use hardware inserts in the DAW. I would also like to avoid this not because I'm afraid of extra d/a a/d conversion, but I don't want to tie up a whole lynx converter when I can just find the inserts somewhere else. I also want to sum outside of the box as kind of the iceing on the cake and possibly send that out to a tube compressor for warmth. I also want to use pro tools native PCI and have that go out to lynx aurora for my i/o.

And in case anyones wondering I have already spent $1,000-2,000 on treating my room with GIK panels. And mix with Yamaha hs80s, plan on getting a second pair (either CMS 65 or Solo Be) and a monitor station such as the dangerous ST.

So here's my questions:

1) How would you go from a digi 003 to the above set up? Piece by piece so you can continue to mix for people and add something at each purchase?

2) What would you add, take out, change in the signal flow?

3) Would it be more worth 1) getting a full console but risk the cost of maintenance of it 2) Get something similar to the x-desk (I would need at least 3 of them and probably 2 converters which is just about $3,000 for each 8 channels of inserts totaling probably around 13k) or 3) Simply just use hardware inserts control everything in the box and sum out to a nice 16 channel sum bux?

4) Do you have suggestions how you would set up a patch bay for the set up?

5) I was looking at the ghost and toft boards but I have used a ghost and wasn't impressed, and heard mixed (no pun intended) things about toft...I believe everything has a purpose for different people and their budget but you ultimately get what you pay for. This lead me in the direction of the SSL stuff, x-desk and matrix. So with that being said...is it worth spending more on a matrix over 3 x-desks. (the one thing...and I only briefly read about the matrix...is I don't know if I like the patching options of the matrix. I think I like using a patch bay where If I wanted to I can patch 16 eqs into 16 compressors back into the DAW and I don't know if the matrix would allow that or not?)

Thanks for the help and sorry for any confusion!

[Kiwi]

Use the Bricasti via s/pdif.

The Digi converters are not known for real high end quality.
Analog summing is a thorny contentious issue. It's more divisive than religion or politics.

A great many intelligent people can and do mix hits totally ITB and can argue that there is no reason to use analog summing. Other argue that analog is "night and day", blah blah, woof woof ... there is no wrong or right: what is right for you is what is right for you. There is no debate at all that using analog will introduce noise and distortion: maybe your music needs more noise and distortion ...

Some people can hear difference between cheap, average and high end converters. Others can't. A lot depends on your monitoring chain, the acoustic noise floor of your room, and your listening experience. Only you can know if you are happy with what you are hearing. Sometimes it's a case of ignorance being bliss: if you get a taste for quality, you are screwed ...

Personally - I think you are on the wrong track thinking about analog summing if you don't intend to replace the Digi with something high end. And then maybe if you had really hi end converters, maybe you wouldn't see the need for improving ...

Do you track many channels at once, or mainly do overdubs? You might gain the most from a stereo pair of very high end converters ... maybe Burl?

[Icetea335]

Kiwi: I'm going to pro tools native with the pci core Card to lynx auroras that's my base.

I mainly mix 17-50 tracks. I do overdubs as well. In the studio at school I would track 24-32 tracks at once and plan do this at my studio as people are paying me for my mixing it wouldn't Hurt to expand my services.

What I mainly wanted to know is

1) how can I upgrade from digi 003 to outboard without having to wait to use gear. Like I want to use something and incorporate it and now buy something ( like a summit box or console till it's really gonna matter ( like having good converters first)

[Icetea335]

I guess what I'm trying to say ( I'm horrible with wording my thoughts)

Is where I'm at: digi 003, acoustically treated room and a pair of hs80s/focals, ton of plugins (basically exclusively itb)

Where I'm going : monitor station ( to switch from pc to daw to console/sum bus and various outputs) patchbay, outboard gear ( 17-20 eqs, 6-10 compressors) pci based interface ( mainly looking at pro tools hd since I work with pro tools) a few lynx converters and then debating if summing or console or neither after various research.

I can't buy this all at once and can't save up, would rather buy piece by piece and master things one at a time... The question really is in what order would you buy the gear to transition from a digi 003 to hd so things can be used on the digi 003 till I have enough to switch to hd?I don't want to buy something and have it sit or buy something that's not gonna make a difference till the final stages.

Thanks!

[chris@theblue]

A tall order for sure,
buy time at your local studio.
buy time at your local analog studio.
buy time at your local analog studio with the out board gear. . .
buy time and be happy
buy time save money
buy time = knowledge
buy gear
C

[lcressy]

This may help....I have the 003 with a presonus digimax FS so 18 i/o. I have an older Ramsa board and run the out of the 003 and digimax ( connected to 003 via adat) into the Ramsa, then back into the 003/digimax. I have mixer channels 1-12 setup as hardware inserts and insert those into "important" channels where I think the sonic imprint of the board may help the sound. On the vocal channels I also have a Pro Vla II inserted. Even with those converters, the mixes have a more natural vibe than just ITB, IMO. I am running pro tools 7.4, so this will only work with the mellowmuse ATA Time Adjuster to adjust the delay compensation. Even with PT9, you may need the ATA, because with the hardware inserts active, I show 8332 samples of latency (when mixing), which I think PT9 is limited to 4000 - double check that though.
I also have 2 out board verbs coming out of 13&14, 15 & 16. I monitor out of the spdif out into a benchmark DAC to some Dyns, and the spdif in I have a LA 610 and sansamp Bass DI into a Rosetta.
I keep the mixer channels labeled and use them for the same or similar tasks, so the settings remain close, and I can also make more surgical cuts with plugs after the hardware inserts, yet still keep the sound of the hardware and then recall is a non issue.
I DO acknowledge that the converters in the 003 are not great, the Digimax FS are a litte better, but I just keep that in mind, and the tracks that need the better conversion go through the Digimax, then to the 003 - others stay ITB. My monitoring is through the Benchmark, so I trust that, and my room is very well treated. But this is allowing me to grow a hybrid setup and do the very thing that I believe you are looking to do, add a piece at a time.
Maybe that helps......
P.S. - with only 1 spdif out on the 003, I split that using a standard video dist. unit from Best Buy for $30, one feed to the Benchmark and one to a central station for talkback and headphone duties. You can split the spdif, but must maintain the 75ohm impedance - which is the same as standard video.