Apogee Ensemble

[djanogil]

Has anyone tried it yet?

[goldphinga]

Not yet but I know for def its the convertors from the mini-me in there so it should sound pretty similar.

[AdamJay]

Originally Posted by goldphinga

Not yet but I know for def its the convertors from the mini-me in there so it should sound pretty similar.

Odd, i asked 2 guys (seperately) at the Apogee booth @ NAMM specifically if it used any conversion technology from the Mini or Rosetta series and both said "NO, the converters and preamps are entirely new designs."


So i have to ask, how do you know "for def?"

[goldphinga]

The UK distributors told me. And i have it in writing as well.

[Max]

The converters and preamps in Ensemble are entirely new designs.

[goldphinga]

Ok thanks for the reply Max. Sonic distribution got it wrong then.

Can you tell us a bit more about how they compare to the Rosetta/mini series as this is the one VERY significant questiont that has yet to be answered by yourselves.I get a distinct feeling that Apogee is trying to avoid the question as if it was a great quality convertor there would be a song and dance about it.

Do i believe correctly they are a completely new design that slots between the mini me and the rosetta in terms of quality? OR are they worse quality to keep price down.

You see, how can you release a prouct that has several more channels of A/D D/A and 2 more mic pres than the mini me and it be at around the same price point without it being using lower grade conversion/pres?None of us understand how it fits in the range at the mo- we could if you chose to explain a little more about the convertors etc.

People are really needing to have this information asap to make an informed choice.
Thanks.

[Empire 21 Music]

Max - I have one on order - they say end of Feb ship dates - so if the converters are of new design, how do they stack up to the Rosetta?

[Max]

Originally Posted by goldphinga

Ok thanks for the reply Max. Sonic distribution got it wrong then.

Can you tell us a bit more about how they compare to the Rosetta/mini series as this is the one VERY significant questiont that has yet to be answered by yourselves.

You see, how can you release a prouct that has several more channels of A/D D/A and 2 more mic pres than the mini me and it be at around the same price point without it being using lower grade conversion/pres?None of us understand how it fits in the range at the mo- we could if you chose to explain a little more about the convertors etc.

Ensemble falls in-between the Rosetta series and The Mini-Me. But there needs to be a bit more explanation to get the entire picture.

Ensemble is designed to be best-in-class in the digital interface category and will compare favorably to any multi-channel box within $1000.00 of its price point in either direction. The Rosetta 800 and 200 converters are a step up from Ensemble.

Ensemble is a step up from the Mini-Me, being more transparent and quieter. What you may not know is that the Mini-Me saw a price drop from $1295.00 to $995.00 US as of Feb 1st. With USB, the Mini-Me is now $1195 US, a drop of $300.00. In addition to the recent cost reduction, the Mini-Me offers some unique features such as the SLC compressor section and 6-16 volt battery operation for portability. It is also PC compatible and can be used as a stand alone converter to improve existing workstation performance. And yes, the Firewire cards for the Minis are still in the pipeline, despite all of the delays (we can discuss why in another thread).

So at the Mini-Me's new price point, it is also a best-in-class product and compares favorably to anything within $800.00-1000.00 in either direction (depending on whether you have the option card).

[AdamJay]

Originally Posted by goldphinga

Do i believe correctly they are a completely new design that slots between the mini me and the rosetta in terms of quality? OR are they worse quality to keep price down.

You see, how can you release a prouct that has several more channels of A/D D/A and 2 more mic pres than the mini me and it be at around the same price point without it being using lower grade conversion/pres?None of us understand how it fits in the range at the mo- we could if you chose to explain a little more about the convertors etc. .

i won't even pretend that i can answer these questions you've asked of Max.
But here are a few things worth thinking about (read: Pure Economical/Technological Speculation.) ...

1) Advances in Technology.
The $5,000 converters of yesterday don't cost $5,000 to make today. This example can be more obviously seen in advancements in computer technology. Technology sees advancement and critical parts become more widely used, which in turn drives up their supplies which lowers the price.

2) Advances in Parts/Components Options
Design A which required more unique, specialized components is studied to the point that Design B revises such a design but with the use of alternate parts. These parts may be found to be not as critical as originally thought, and the R&D focuses more on other aspects of the product. The resulting product sounds "different", but who is to say one is better than the other. Its purely subjective.

3) Partnerships offsetting end user costs.
Having your product partnered with another product/company provides another source of advertisement and application. The greater advertising resources yields larger sales which allows the company to price the product using Design B more aggressively/competitively than the product using Design A.


Here's an example... When Apple releases a computer that costs less than their last offering, but is faster and an overall superior product... do we ask "Whats the catch?"
Usually we just chalk it up to tecnological advancement combined with a competitive market.

An aside, i've found that with products such as converters, there is rarely a "better" product. "Preferable" would usually be a more suitable term. As with many other products in the professional audio market, the sound of these products is often times a subjective variable.
Its my subjective opinion that a Phoenix DRS-2 sounds better than an AMS 1073-DPA. But its far less expensive. The two units sound different, but my ears prefer the DRS-2. Your ears my prefer the 1073-DPA. The cost difference is an afterthought.

Will the Ensemble sound "different" to the Rosetta or Mini series?
Most likely, its a different design.

Will it sound better? or worse?
that is subjective.

[Empire 21 Music]

thanks max - news on first shipments?

and it sounds like im gonna have to get a big ben as well - or can you elaborate on the clock source in comparison?

[Max]

Originally Posted by Empire 21 Music

thanks max - news on first shipments?

and it sounds like im gonna have to get a big ben as well - or can you elaborate on the clock source in comparison?

Ensemble uses the dual stage Intelliclock; same as the Rosetta series.

[Max]

We are hoping to start shipping at the end of Feb.

[superburtm]

sounds pretty smoking

[goldphinga]

Wow.SOLD!

Thanks max, you have answered all the questions brilliantly.Ill spread the good word to all.Cant wait to get my hands on one.

thumbsup

[Bradahman]

How compatible is this unit with DP.

[jindrich]

Max,

there's somthing i dont fully understand. Wouldn't it be cheaper and more convenient for apogee to use what it already has, instead of throwing money into lots of R&D?

I mean, you could easily throw rosetta800 circuits into ensemble. The design is already amortized, and it was done some years ago, which means also parts are now cheaper (guessing).

to the question what would consumers think about apogee offering a rossetta800 for less with the ensemble, just consider it's a partnership with apple, who surely wants to grab marketshare with logicpro and may in someway subsidize the product, as it only works with macs.

Price points are not only dependent on manufacturing costs. Marketing (in its whole sense) has a lot to do with it. Of course no company tells those things to consumers.


as long as the ensemble sounds not much worse than a digi192, count me in.

btw,
-how are the pres like?
-what kind of latencies can we expect?
-is the matrix routing fully unlimited, that is, any sum of inputs to any output?

[goldphinga]

Who knows, maybe the new convertors actually sound as good as the rosettas.Lets wait for a slutz test.

[Tibbon]

So needless to say, an Ensemble would be a clearly strong upgrade from a Digi002R that is mainly used for Logic Pro 7, right? Pairing it with a Big Ben would take those capabilities even farter right?

Will the software for the matrixes and routing that are now intergrated into Logic be also available for people using the Symphony cards or other Apogee interfaces?

[Schmacko]

I'm also curious about the addition of a Big Ben. Max, would the improvements from a Big Ben (if any) justify the investment of adding it to an Ensemble interface setup?

I had e-mailed an inquiry to Apogee a few weeks ago after the Ensemble announcement regarding the Maestro software's routing abilities, and the response I got is that it would function with similar abilities as the TotalMix software used by my RME Fireface 800 (or TotalMix in general). If this case, then summing should be pretty simple in Maestro's mixer.

Can't wait to get this thing!

[gsilbers]

i am also ineterested to know the quality of the pres.

cause, its 4 mic pres! and lots of AD/DA conversion.

or better to get a 002r and $1000 mic pre (dual?)

[Max]

Originally Posted by jindrich

Max,

there's somthing i dont fully understand. Wouldn't it be cheaper and more convenient for apogee to use what it already has, instead of throwing money into lots of R&D?

I mean, you could easily throw rosetta800 circuits into ensemble. The design is already amortized, and it was done some years ago, which means also parts are now cheaper (guessing).

Not really. Ensemble presented some new challenges related to performance and price points, so it was necessary to design from scratch. The other thing we always have to consider around here is that Lucas and the gang in engineering do not like to look back. They truly relish the art of designing audio gear, so telling Lucas for example, design the Rosetta analog section into a new form factor would be like putting a hit song from your previous record on your new one.

as long as the ensemble sounds not much worse than a digi192, count me in.

Without saying too much I think you will be VERY pleased in this regard.

btw,
-how are the pres like?

The pres in Ensemble are 75db and very transparent, more transparent than the Mini-Me, which you may lor may not prefer, depending on the application. Mic pres are so subjective its really hard to say. Fletcher will of course hate the pres because he hates all clean mic pres, but most people that want a universal preamp that they can color with the mic, compressor etc, will love them.

-what kind of latencies can we expect?

Latency is going to be determined by Apple's Core Audio and your setup ultimately. Remember, Ensemble is a fully integrated class compliant device, meaning there is no driver to install, it just shows up in the control panel. We have been working closely with Apple on the core audio driver and expect latency to be comparable to any other low latency Firewire device and on par with some PCI cards as well.

Also remember with the Maestro software, you get two 20x2 low latency mixers per unit; so if you have three Ensembles you can do six separate 20x2 low latency mixes (note: we say low latency, because there is no such thing as zero latency, but Maestro with Ensemble or Symphony is a close as it gets).

-is the matrix routing fully unlimited, that is, any sum of inputs to any output?

Absolutely. There is a complete routing matrix in Maestro that will allow you to customize your I/O to your heart's content, without having to re-patch cables over and over.

[gsilbers]

nice!!!!


hey max, can u compare the mic pres to any other in the market in terms of audio quality? or price of mic pre of comparable quality


so why firewire 400 and not 800?


is there a chart or specs on the amount of latency in ms for different G5s? (dual 2.3 and 2g ram for example)

[Max]

Originally Posted by Tibbon

So needless to say, an Ensemble would be a clearly strong upgrade from a Digi002R that is mainly used for Logic Pro 7, right?

I really try not to get too much into giving direct comparisons with other manufacturers on the forums. The best way I can answer that is to suggest that you do a search for the Mini-Me and see how others compare it and extrapolate that on what I have already said regarding how Ensemble fits in the line. You can put the rest together from there.

Pairing it with a Big Ben would take those capabilities even farter right?

Yep.

Will the software for the matrixes and routing that are now intergrated into Logic be also available for people using the Symphony cards or other Apogee interfaces?

Yes. One of the coolest things about Maestro is that it has all of the functionality and can be used to control Symphony and Ensembles simultaneously.

[AdamJay]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

so why firewire 400 and not 800?

the bandwidth of FWR400 is plenty.
16 channels in AND out of 24bit/96khz audio should not require anymore than 10MB/sec.
Firewire 400 gives you 5 times that. (400mbps = 50MB/sec)

[Max]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

nice!!!!

hey max, can u compare the mic pres to any other in the market in terms of audio quality? or price of mic pre of comparable quality

Again, no direct comparisons, but the mic pres in Ensemble will compare favorably to stand alone mic pres as expensive as Ensemble itself.

so why firewire 400 and not 800?

Again, Ensemble is a class compliant device and we wanted it to work on all Macintoshes, including the new iMac and MacBook Pro. S400 gives us all the bandwidth we need.

is there a chart or specs on the amount of latency in ms for different G5s? (dual 2.3 and 2g ram for example)

Latency is determined by the I/O box, software and drivers much more than the CPU speed. CPU load is a bigger issue with processors and the faster the CPU the more load it can handle (how this effects latency is by allowing for lower buffer settings). Symphony for example, has been designed to take much of the load off the CPU, so that we can get better track performance in big sessions.

[livingstone]

hi max,

how many ensemble can be chained ?

very nice idea to though about the insert on the mic pre before the converters ;-)
is the adat an smux one? a second would have been great!!

[Max]

Originally Posted by livingstone

hi max,

how many ensemble can be chained ?

very nice idea to though about the insert on the mic pre before the converters ;-)
is the adat an smux one? a second would have been great!!

You can link up to three ensembles at once, and yes it is S/MUX.

[chris5s]

Originally Posted by Max

......
And yes, the Firewire cards for the Minis are still in the pipeline, despite all of the delays (we can discuss why in another thread).
......

Yeah, I'd like to know more! I mean, this was almost 2 years ago. You guys owe me one anyway, I pointed out a typo on the original Ensemble page
Cheers
Chris

[jeronimo]

What´s the price for the Ensemble?

[livingstone]

does the 2 spdif i/o work simultaneously and independently ?

thanks for all these info Max!!!