Barefoot Micromain 27's- my new monitors

[yrplace]

I just purchased a pair of Barefoot Micromain 27's after demoing them and using them start to finish on a Brian Wilson track last week. Not only did I find the imaging to be exceptional, but every instrument I recorded just sounded right and in balance with even less effort than usual . Today I listened to the session on my regular 10 " Tannoys w/ Mastering Labs xovers and it still all sounds great. Can't wait for my permanent pair of the 27's to arrive in about two weeks. Check the speakers out if you get a chance.

Mark Linett

Has anyone else tried them yet?

[Matt Grondin]

Mark, much respect to both you and Brian Wilson for your recent work over the past few years. You guys rock! I'm a big fan of Brian. Anyway, congrats on the Barefoot's... I'm sure they are great. Take care.

[Jules]

Exciting development!

[drew]

a demo pair is headed my way this week. can't wait.

[studjo]

any of those available in Europe (Switzerland ) ?

[yrplace]

Originally Posted by dobby12

Mark, much respect to both you and Brian Wilson for your recent work over the past few years. You guys rock! I'm a big fan of Brian. Anyway, congrats on the Barefoot's... I'm sure they are great. Take care.

Thanks for the positive comments.

As to the gear, I just can't keep from adding stuff even as I try to sell excess items that I have too many of........

Mark

[Tetness]

Originally Posted by studjo

any of those available in Europe (Switzerland ) ?

Working on that. Stay tuned.

[Autocrat]

yrplace,

Have you compared them to Adams or even Mackies?

[Glenn Kuras]

mmmmmm I was at the website looking around.. Can't seem to find any pricing on them.. Can someone point me to that price page?
I hope my NS10's won't get pissed at me!!! I feel like such a cheater!

Glenn

[Tetness]

Originally Posted by myfipie

mmmmmm I was at the website looking around.. Can't seem to find any pricing on them.. Can someone point me to that price page?
Glenn

http://vintageking.com/New-Brands/Barefoot-Sound

[parissound]

Such an amazing looking speaker and as what the rumors are sounds amazing too.

Too bad I cannot afford it, sux being broke.

Oh well, maybe I will get blessed and get a big project with some real money.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by Autocrat

yrplace,

Have you compared them to Adams or even Mackies?

I have..
Lets just say I can't wait to get my MM27 pair..
I heard the older 8" subs version..great..can't wait to get my 10" sub pair

[yrplace]

Originally Posted by Autocrat

yrplace,

Have you compared them to Adams or even Mackies?

Haven't tried the ADAMs frankly I didn't want things too complicated. I have Mackie 828's (?) that we use on remotes, and they are decent speakers for the price. Better to record with than mix with in my experience.

I've been using Tannoy SGM 10's w/ Mastering Lab xovers for years and the stuff I recorded and mixed last week on the Barefoots sounds great on them, but the Tannoys do have more mid "honk" and a mushier low end that is hard to get right.

Got another tracking date on Monday, and my micromains are a couple of weeks away.....darn it!

Mark

[Tetness]

Mark,

Thomas and I are thrilled that you have chosen Barefoot Sound's MM27s to be your new monitor and are racing to get you a pair of speakers ASAP!

Thanks and much respect!

[drew]

i just finished a week demoing the Barefoots and ADAM S3As at the same time. i also demoed the ADAM 2.5s about 2 weeks ago. i hadn't changed my monitors in 6 years, running 1031s and NS10s with a sub. when i demoed the 2.5s, i liked them. they instantly revealed flaws in my current project and allowed me to fix them. agood experience all the way around. But i didn't want to jump the gun and buy them especially since i hadn't heard the 3s and of course the MM27s were looming, so i waited. Mike @ VK has been really great helping me out with this and sent me both the 3s and the MM27s.

the Barefoots are amazing in every way. these things are built like a TANK. these are the prototypes but they are identical to the production models sans clip indicator. they weigh 66lbs each!!!!!! better have good stands. i did lots of listening of course but really felt like the proof is in working on them so i did lots of tests. mixing the same song on each, stuff like that. i also did normal sessions on each. the ADAMs were brighter than i expected them to be considering what i heard with the 2.5s. i now think it is more that the 3s lack bottom and less that they are bright although i do think they are a bit on the bright side. i also had trouble judging the low end on these. i would work on a kick, getting it to sound good to me and switch to the 10s and sub and it would be over the top. i think I'm one of the minority that thinks the 2.5s are the better speaker. the MM27s being a sealed enclosure with dual 10" drivers delivers EVERYTHING in a very smooth way. at first i held this against the 27s thinking they sounded "too good", but after working with them for several days i realized that you can in fact trust them and just make it sound good on them and it translates. if i had any problems with my mixes in the past it was that they would sound a little bit muddy and dark when i heard them elsewhere and i think it was the 1031s not letting me deal with the bottom end properly and hyping the highs. the 27s show me everything and let me deal with it. i revisited a jazz mix i had worked on the previous week and heard a lot of bottom end messiness that i didn't hear and once dealt with the mix improved a lot. and with the highend i won't have to mix it bright like i do with the 1031s and what i think i would need to do with the 3s. there was something i really liked about the clarity in the mids on the ADAMS that i don't think the Barefoots have but ultimately the MM27s full, smooth, extended sound-field won out for me. this was a very difficult process and decision for me, i hope I'm making the right one!!!

hope this helps others.

[Tetness]

Glad you enjoyed the speakers and will be sending yours to you ASAP. Thanks for spending the time and giving us a detailed review.

[GPl]

Tetness, who is selling them up here in Toronto? Is ProAudioCanada?

[Tetness]

Currently, Vintage King has exclusive distribution. Foreign sales will be handled through them.

[Rep]

yrplace ... drew...
I am SOOOOOO envious of you guys With those NEW BEASTS .... in a good way .
.... Damit, I knew it... from the very beginning...

[RoundBadge]

bumpski for my new speakers!

[Rep]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

bumpski for my new speakers!

Yea ... Rub it in why-done-cha ... Kick a Man when he is down, Pour the salt in the wound...
And clichés .... And more clichés ...ect

Originally Posted by djui5

Anyone wanna buy a pair of S3A's for $6,000?

djui5 = Add mine in that list with yours will Ya ?


.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by drew

there was something i really liked about the clarity in the mids on the ADAMS that i don't think the Barefoots have but ultimately the MM27s full, smooth, extended sound-field won out for me. this was a very difficult process and decision for me, i hope I'm making the right one!!!

I haven't heard those dual 10" MM27s drew but I know what you're saying from using the same mids and tweeter set up here on the MM12s. (I also had a pair of S3As and a pair of 6A Dyns with BX30 subs at one time.) As great as the Barefoots are and as many people as are going to love them, there is always a trade off. Nothing is everything, it's just not possible. From conversation a couple of years ago, Barefoot's goal seems to be splitting the middle on any design extremes. So yes, there is something "missing" or I'd say "exchanged" in the mids compared to those ribbons. As you said there's cohesion, from top to mids to bottom, and the clear low end details sans ports and bumps. This is a totally new thing in small monitor. Overall I call it a 'natural' sound and I'd imagine that anyone not 100% in love with their monitors has a fighting chance of finding what they're lacking with these.

The Adam ribbon design is unique and powerful, it's revealing in harmonic and tonal midrange, and it has a narrow dispersion and a bit of mid-forward emphasis in the overall layout, especially right at the sweet spot. This more narrow throw defeats a room somewhat and makes a strong image if centered, which can be very good for rooms that are less than ideally treated or designed. I feel like this mid-quality and room friendlyness is a big part of their success. Yet the low end suffers some, with bumps and holes from a small ported driver ... cohesion suffers with the ribbon material, the room is ignored to some extent, and they lack that serious ass we all want at Volume. So now people with smaller than 4As are adding subs ... yikes, usually not a good idea in less than ideal rooms. The barefoot design is more like a large 3-way in a smaller box, the room is a bit more in play than the S3As, and everything is more even and natural overall. (more akin to larger ATC, PMC, etc) The Adam ribbons are hi-fi and full range versions of the NS-10 lineage in my mind, the mid-emphasis monitor design. The Barefoots are like a small main, with mid drivers more like Super-Auratones with tweeters and subs built around the mids seamlessly ... not perceptably crossed-over. Very useful, powerful, and even.

So I'm rambling a bit (at 3 am on GS, again) ... the simple response is, "I agree" ... if anything is absent from the Barefoot that might be useful it's that thing you've mentioned, that extreme detail - pushed right there in your face. Yet to have that would mean the rest would have to change, and they wouldn't be 'Mini Mains' or 'Micro Mains' anymore.

I like my MM12s more and more all the time, going on 2 years now.

[drew]

wow, perfectly put. couldn't have said it better myself.

the more i think about it, the more i know i made the right choice. the 27s are a speaker to base your room around for sure. i may add the 2.5s down the road to replace the NS10s (gotta ween myself off them) just to get that mid clarity perspective but who knows once i have the 27s for a bit that might not be needed.

Here's a pic of the 27s in my room

[kingofswing]

Originally Posted by lucey

I haven't heard those dual 10" MM27s drew but I know what you're saying from using the same mids and tweeter set up here on the MM12s. (I also had a pair of S3As and a pair of 6A Dyns with BX30 subs at one time.) As great as the Barefoots are and as many people as are going to love them, there is always a trade off. Nothing is everything, it's just not possible. From conversation a couple of years ago, Barefoot's goal seems to be splitting the middle on any design extremes. So yes, there is something "missing" or I'd say "exchanged" in the mids compared to those ribbons. As you said there's cohesion, from top to mids to bottom, and the clear low end details sans ports and bumps. This is a totally new thing in small monitor. Overall I call it a 'natural' sound, and I'd imagine that anyone not 100% in love with their monitors has a fighting chance of finding what they're lacking with these.

The Adam ribbon design is unique and powerful, it's revealing in harmonic and tonal midrange, and it has a narrow dispersion and a bit of mid-forward emphasis in the overall layout, especially right at the sweet spot. This more narrow throw defeats a room somewhat and makes a strong image if centered, which can be very good for rooms that are less than ideally treated or designed. I feel like this mid-quality and room friendlyness is a big part of their success. Yet the low end suffers some, with bumps and holes from a small ported driver ... cohesion suffers with the ribbon material, the room is ignored to some extent, and they lack that serious ass we all want at Volume. So now people with smaller than 4As are adding subs ... yikes. The barefoot design is more like a large 3-ways in a small box, the room is more in play, and everything is even and natural overall. (ATC, PMC, K+H etc. 3 ways) Maybe not that big mids push, but okay, other things. The Adam ribbons are hi-fi and full range versions of the NS-10 lineage in my mind, the mid-emphasis monitor design. The Barefoots are small mains, with mid drivers more like Super-Auratones than harmonic open-heart surgery, and with tweeters and subs built around the mids seamlessly ... not perceptably crossed-over. Very useful, powerful, and even.

So I'm rambling a bit (at 3 am on GS, again) ... the simple response is "I agree" ... if anything is absent from the Barefoot that might be useful it's that thing you've mentioned, the extreme mid detail - pushed right there in your face. Yet to have that would mean the rest would have to change, and they wouldn't be 'Mini Mains' or 'Micro Mains' anymore.

I like my MM12s more and more all the time, going on 2 years now.

Perhaps the Adam S3A's and the new Sub10 Mk2 would make a great system that completes the spectrum of the barefoots..

[kingofswing]

I am no expert in speaker design, but know a good sound when i hear one.

In realation to my 2 sentenced post above (which i replied with out fully reading Luceys post), i have to now come to my own conclusion (IMO only) about the lack of in your face midrange from speakers such as the Barefoots.


For starters they have subs, which is why the potential midrange clarirty is masked over.

I go through this every week in my PA business. When i hook up my 3-Way PA tops for full range use, the tops on thier own give out plenty of SPL for small to medium apps. However the mid-high (from the horn) detail is pretty non existent, which is being masked by the dual 15 inch woofers in the cabinets.

However, when i use a pair of two way or even those same 3-ways with my various subs (ranging from 15-18") with an active x-over, the sound is completely different. All of a sudden you hear the full clarity (only as good as the speaker though) in the mid and upper mid-high range, whilst the bass end is free flow and is less likely to muddy things up for the tops.

But the above is nothing new, and what i am trying to say is that the Barefoot 27's look brilliant in design, but is probably an overkill for its box size. Dual 10" woofers (like have two Adam Sub10's in each box) with Dual 5" Mids with a single 1" tweeter sounds like it should be well balanced boc. But effectively the Dual subs are going deeper than both the mid driver(s) and the tweeter, so on higher SPL's, the midrange detail is going to lack slightly...and im saying that from my own experience.

So, I still think a quality 3-Way box for Nearfield to Midfield could benefit from a seperate sub solution, as this will take away any low-low mid bumpy effects away from the mains and allow for a cleaner experience, and improve on stero imaging, etc.

I hope that i am not offending Thomas or any of the current Barefoot users, as im sure they are brialliant speakers with lots of potential.

I also have to agree with with Thomas (on a previos post) as he explains that the comparison of the MM27's with the S3a's is not a fair one as far as features, but is so in terms of price. I also agree that the MM27's is a different beast (sealed box), etc) with a kind of main speaker performance in a relatively small package.

But my disagreement is as far as the overall speaker design in terms of the over use of subs for small boxes (for near to midfield use), and its overall detail being compromised.

my 2 rupees woth.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by kingofswing

... and what i am trying to say is that the Barefoot 27's look brilliant in design, but is probably an overkill for its box size. Dual 10" woofers (like have two Adam Sub10's in each box) with Dual 5" Mids with a single 1" tweeter sounds like it should be well balanced boc. But effectively the Dual subs are going deeper than both the mid driver(s) and the tweeter, so on higher SPL's, the midrange detail is going to lack slightly...and im saying that from my own experience.

There are many nice mains and 3-ways made. Do they lose mids at volume? No.

So, I still think a quality 3-Way box for Nearfield to Midfield could benefit from a seperate sub solution, as this will take away any low-low mid bumpy effects away from the mains and allow for a cleaner experience, and improve on stero imaging, etc.

Maybe in a PA this is a rule of thumb but external subs in studios are tricky. Small studio speakers have small drivers and ports, that's the issue. Dual 10s or a 12 allows real low end, not under or over hyped low end.

I hope that i am not offending Thomas or any of the current Barefoot users, as im sure they are brialliant speakers with lots of potential.

No offense taken, but you should hear them ... they're not sub-heavy PA speakers ... they're even and cohesive, without being overly analytical.

But my disagreement is as far as the overall speaker design in terms of the over use of subs for small boxes (for near to midfield use), and its overall detail being compromised.

oh no, there's no compromise in the mids ... just no forwardness. thumbsup

[krid]

Originally Posted by kingofswing

In realation to my 2 sentenced post above (which i replied with out fully reading Luceys post), i have to now come to my own conclusion (IMO only) about the lack of in your face midrange from speakers such as the Barefoots.

How can you come to this conclusion without hearing them ?

I have a pair of Barefoot MM27 and there is no lack of in your face midrange.

I worked on a pair of ADAM S3A during more than one year and I prefer the midrange of the MM27 : it sounds way more natural.

[Rep]

Originally Posted by krid

How can you come to this conclusion without hearing them ? .

Agreed 100% ......

This is exactly WHY the Industry is so Screwed up in the first place...

They are Always making Full blown assessments and judgments,.

... Based on Something that they HAVE NOT even tried yet .



.

[kingofswing]

Originally Posted by Rep

Agreed 100% ......

This is exactly the Industry is so Screwed up in the first place...

Always making Full blown assessments and judgments,.

... Based on Something that they HAVE NOT even tried yet .



.

very true indeed. I have not heard them, but i own lots of professional PA / touring speakers and subs with different designs from small to line arrays...not that it makes any difference to you guys. But this is where my subjective opinion and thoughts comes in...thats all.

Am i right?...noway...its just my own feelin and viewpoint.

Lucey...good point about subs in studio causing issues, but many get around it and some cannot live without them. it differs from user to user.

But i just feel two subs in a small box is a little OTT.

Regardless of my comments though, i dont know how well these boxes are goimg to stand up with the likes of well established monitor companies. Yes...everyone starts somewhere...but the likes of ATC, PMC, Genelec, Dynaudio, perhaps Adam as well as K+H are now all well established and well respected brands.

One thing that the high end brands above have in common is that they are all European, and that IMO maks a big difference in perception of quality and reliability.

I have nothing against American products, but i must say that the majority of studios around the world use the above brands, thats the bottom line. Some of you may feel that i have drifted off a little bit, but i just felt i had to say that.

On another note, i would love to hear the MM27's and prove myself and my thinking wrong. But i dont see that day being close. Im in the UK.

[barefoot]

Originally Posted by kingofswing

I am no expert in speaker design, but know a good sound when i hear one.....

For starters they have subs, which is why the potential midrange clarirty is masked over.

You're observations make sense, but your reasoning is completely off.

You say that your 3-way speaker lacks midrange clarity. Ok. Then you say that you add a subwoofer and you gain midrange clarity. I have no doubt. Finally you conclude (without ever hearing) that the MicroMain27 lacks midrange clarity because it has subwoofers.

Do you see the contradiction here?

PA speakers are a little different. They often use 15" speakers as woofers and 6" speakers as midranges. High SPLs are the name of the game. Anyway, you have a woofer, not a sub, that is spanning from the lower midrange down to say 40Hz. It generates a fair amount of distortion across its entire spectrum and more; remembering that those harmonics reach up even higher. When you add a high pass filter around 80Hz or 100Hz you significantly reduce the low frequency energy going into the woofer. Consequently, distortion goes down across the board. You gain clarity in the midrange. Then you fill in the low end with subwoofers that are much better suited for the task.

Now, with a near field monitor you typically have a 2-way system with a 6.5" or 8" woofer that reaches up even further into the midrange. It also might go down 40Hz with all the associated distortion mechanisms. Are you seeing my point now? It's basically the same situation except with a 2-way rather than a 3-way. In fact, you could argue that the situation is even worse because the woofer covers a broader range. Adding subwoofers and limiting the woofer's low frequency extension decreases midrange distortion and increases clarity.

The effect that lucey and drew are speaking of, I think, has to do with a difference in upper midrange directivity between the two speakers. It's definitely not about distortion and coloration, because IMO there's really no debate about the MM27's performance in this regard. In the world of studio monitors directivity has a big impact on translation. And I've very carefully tailored the MM27's off-axis response so that it translates effortlessly. I'm happy to hear that folks are finding this to be the case.

Originally Posted by kingofswing

I hope that i am not offending Thomas or any of the current Barefoot users, as im sure they are brialliant speakers with lots of potential.

I'm not offended. But I do eat and breathe this stuff, so you should fully expect to be set straight if you make any more flawed arguments.