Powering Considerations: Bass Rigs

[Jax]

So I'm finally putting together a bass rig. Should be all setup within the next couple of months.

I'm probably going to pick up an Eminence-loaded 4x10 (or 2x10) Avatar cab, a used Ampeg SVT 3 Pro, and later a used Schecter Robert DeLeo 4 (maybe 5) string because I already have a serviceable bass (though not 'good'). If I find the lowest usable note kind of weak, I'll add a 1x15 eventually. The rig's purpose will be studio recording and tons of jamming/rehearsals in between.

The question that comes to mind is whether I'd be 'underpowering' the Avatar, which is rated at something like 1200W RMS, 1400 peak. Does an underpowered cab suffer sonically from never being opened up? How?

I know that the upper levels the cab is capable of would far exceed anything I'd need in the studio, so I'm wondering whether or not I should look at a 2x10 cab. Knowing that a 2x10 ("only" 800W RMS) will push more air sounds like it might be a better choice.

I have a feeling that the SVT set to around 3-5 through the 4x10 Avatar will be as thundering as I'll ever need, but some suggestions could help. I'm not looking to alter my choice of gear too much, for financial reasons. I'm finding I don't want to spend $1200-1500 on a bass rig afterall.

Thanks in advance!

[Jay Kahrs]

I'd go with the 2x10 cab. Even in a 300-400 capacity club you'll do just fine for stage volume, if you need more get it coming back in the monitors. The bass amp I have here at the studio is an SWR Workingman's 10. About 80-100 watts with a single 10" and a nasty piezo tweeter that I leave off. It's got plenty of power for the studio, enough that if it's really cranked in the live room it makes it into the overheads without a problem. But, it's not nearly enough for playing gigs with a rock band.

[Steve Smith]

I cant believe I am saying this, but....
Carvin. they have a great sounding 2x10 with piezo that the bass player on the live gig I just did had. Sounded really, really good.. I was shocked at it actually. there is a pic of it on the Sighting in St Louis thread..

I think he said it was well under a grand?

[Jax]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
I'd go with the 2x10 cab. Even in a 300-400 capacity club you'll do just fine for stage volume, if you need more get it coming back in the monitors. The bass amp I have here at the studio is an SWR Workingman's 10. About 80-100 watts with a single 10" and a nasty piezo tweeter that I leave off. It's got plenty of power for the studio, enough that if it's really cranked in the live room it makes it into the overheads without a problem. But, it's not nearly enough for playing gigs with a rock band.

Hmm... the 2x10 getting into the overheads gave me the idea of recording the main bass track as normal but with the drum overheads also picking up the bass sound. Like a "bass room mic" thing.

Anybody ever tried this? I think it would sound cool as long as the drums are either not there or dampened down. Then again there could be a world of phase problems. Either way I'm trying it.

Anyhoo you're probably right as we've been getting by (barely) with a POS Marshall 30W solid state amp with a single 12" (it might be 10"). Actually, with a 121 crushed into the grille, we've gotten some surprisingly good sounds when we've tried to.

[Jax]

Originally posted by Steve Smith
I cant believe I am saying this, but....
Carvin. they have a great sounding 2x10 with piezo that the bass player on the live gig I just did had. Sounded really, really good.. I was shocked at it actually. there is a pic of it on the Sighting in St Louis thread..

I think he said it was well under a grand?

Is the Carvin a combo or cab? And yeah, my knee-jerk reaction to Carvin is the same as the one I have for Mackie.

The Avatar 4x10 is $326 and the 2x10 is a lot less, but I'd be interested in hearing the Carvin if you can find out the name of it.

[Steve Smith]

Originally posted by Jax
Is the Carvin a combo or cab? And yeah, my knee-jerk reaction to Carvin is the same as the one I have for Mackie.

The Avatar 4x10 is $326 and the 2x10 is a lot less, but I'd be interested in hearing the Carvin if you can find out the name of it.

here ya go.. sounded awesome!

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by Steve Smith
here ya go.. sounded awesome!

sure it wasnt the guy playing it? i have heard guys make hartke sound incredible. they would barely touch their bass and it just lit up like a monstar.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by Jax
Hmm... the 2x10 getting into the overheads gave me the idea of recording the main bass track as normal but with the drum overheads also picking up the bass sound. Like a "bass room mic" thing.

Anybody ever tried this? I think it would sound cool as long as the drums are either not there or dampened down. Then again there could be a world of phase problems. Either way I'm trying it.

I almost always record with the bass amp and the drums in the same room. As long as the bass amp isn't too loud it seems to help "tune" the bottom end of the song together. If it's too loud then you'll have a mess of bottom on your hands and you should either throw the amp into another room or throw it under the bus and stick with a DI.

If you spend enough time with positioning mics and the amp you'll get enough seperation to replace the bass as long as the drummer is pounding away. If he's a wimp or the part is very open (like brushwork) you'll have problems. Or, if the guy hits a really foul note you might need to retake the song. It's why I always do bass punches before moving on to the next song. Usually I have more hi-hat and cymbals in the bass mic then I do bass in the drum mics, that's kinda the goal.

BTW, I'd avoid anything that says Harkte on it like the plauge. I haven't heard the Carvin stuff but I hold them up next to PV. Not amazing but OK.

[Saucyjack]

I've never been real fond of Eminance speakers,particularly with Guitars(poorly made and prone to frying,not to mention sound like crap).
Maybe their Bass speakers are better.I dunno

[Steve Smith]

Originally posted by alphajerk
sure it wasnt the guy playing it? i have heard guys make hartke sound incredible. they would barely touch their bass and it just lit up like a monstar.

you make a good point, but if we are talking about good players anyway.. cause on the flip side I have heard bad players make an SVT sound like crap.

Jay,

oddlt enough, my first bass rig was a PV.... my fav was an ampeg "piggy back" ( the flip top thingy.. whatever it was called) and an old SVT that I recorded in England. man, that was an easy to get great tone, early model SVT with a Stingray ( sn#003 ) plugged in...

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by Saucyjack
I've never been real fond of Eminance speakers,particularly with Guitars(poorly made and prone to frying,not to mention sound like crap).
Maybe their Bass speakers are better.I dunno

Eminance makes a lot of different speakers. Some of them are crap, others are pretty damn good.

I still think the best all-time low budget bass amp has to be the PV TNT150. It weighs a ****ing ton but it's the cheapest new amp that can actually hang with a loud rock band.

[Jax]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs


If you spend enough time with positioning mics and the amp you'll get enough seperation to replace the bass as long as the drummer is pounding away. If he's a wimp or the part is very open (like brushwork) you'll have problems. Or, if the guy hits a really foul note you might need to retake the song. It's why I always do bass punches before moving on to the next song. Usually I have more hi-hat and cymbals in the bass mic then I do bass in the drum mics, that's kinda the goal.

BTW, I'd avoid anything that says Harkte on it like the plauge. I haven't heard the Carvin stuff but I hold them up next to PV. Not amazing but OK.

Just about the only time I don't get enough separation is when I don't give a shit, like when I'm playing with somebody just to get ideas or jams recorded. I have had problems with the other situations you mentioned like lite drumming + an open song. And I've ****ed a song or two by not fixing bass takes before moving on. That's always a great idea.

I always baffle at least directly in front of the bass rig at least 4 feet out, angled to reflect away off one of the angled walls. Takes care of cymbal bleed pretty well.

Fwiw, Will Lee of Paul Schaffer's band uses at least a Hartke 4x10 if not a full Hartke rig. That dude sounds amazing, but then again he can play his ass off.

Also hey Steve, doesn't Carvin only sell direct? If there's no way of hearing that rig first, I'm going with a more tried and true (Ampeg) setup.

[Jax]

Just took a gander at some Carvin R1000 reviews on harmonycentral. I'll have to pass, as Carvin is slowly but surely flushing itself down the toilet.

Tried and true is the way.

[Ted Nightshade]

You ought to check out the Acme Low B speakers. Not very efficient, but sound great, small, portable, and great for ultra low notes.