Synthesizers and such

[clusterchord]

two boards i know NIN use/used are:

Waldorf XT or XTk - wavetable synthesis. good at dirty edgy sounds. digital, but musical.

Analog Systems RS analog modular system.


also, they used lot o crappy old lofi samplers. dunno models exactly but you could look into Emax 1, Mirage, etc - those with low bit resolution and analog filtering..




i own the XT and its a very capable and unique synth. you also may want to check Waldorf MicroWave 1 - a hybrid with wavetables and analog filters. deadly combination. can be very gritty yet musical. also, Ensoniq ESQ-1/SQ-80 - ultra cheap.

on the virtual analog front i second the Nord Lead 2X suggestion.. good for cutting sequences and arpeggiations. however, tho machines like Nord Lead have their specific cutting appeal, for classic ballsy and warm analog sound - stick to the real thing.

there are many relatively unexpensive and powerful old analogs out there. for leads, bass n punchy stuff check some monophonics like Korg MS-20, SCI Pro One, Moog Source, Moog Prodigy etc. for pads strings Matrix 6/6R/1000 (very cheap) or something better like Roland MKS70, JX8P, MKS80 etc.. btw, matrix1000 wont do moog bass - filter is much weaker, and its got software envelopes that aint got the speed/snap requried for that.


0.02

[Dave Peck]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Hi all.

So I want to learn a little about Synthesizers, I have been out of that game for a few years (when I get the chance to play keys it is usually piano or organ now-a-days) and I know things change pretty quickly in that arena.

Specifically I am looking for the keyboard sounds that are used in heavier stuff like Nine Inch Nails. What would I look for, what would I stay away from, what is the deal with soft synths vs. hardware etc.

Thanks!!!

Reaktor is an amazing product, and some softsynths can be a great value compared to hardware synths, but I don't think these would be the best choice for someone who is just getting into synths and wants to learn a little about synthesizers. They would probably just be frustrating and confusing and not very productive.

For someone who is just getting into synths, I would recommend one of the simpler hardware synth that has a good user interface (lots of knobs on the panel, as opposed to a tiny display and a couple of buttons).

For older gear, maybe an Arp Odyssey, Octave Cat, Sequential Pro One, Roland Juno 60/Jupiter6/Jupiter8, etc.

For newer gear, an Access Virus B or C, Nord Lead 2 or 3, Alesis Ion, etc.

If you want harsh NIN synth sounds, many synths like these will do the job if you experiment with some distortion effects (and some of these synths have on-board distortion FX).

Dave Peck

[u b k]

let me second third and fourth the vote for reaktor. it's architecture is deep and complex, but it can be as easy to use as any other softsynth.

one of the best arguments for the novice getting reaktor is that, simply by loading up one of the billions of modules and stepping thru the trillions of presets, almost anything can be found readymade.

with a little adventurous knob-tweaking, an essential behavior for any aspiring synthesist, a lot can be learned.

also, a good hardware synth with a fairly simple matrix is a must have for a beginner, because nothing teaches you the basics like a box with real knobs.

waldorf and oberheim are all over NIN, as is almost every other synth and sampler ever made, processed in a billion unimaginable ways. if you want to get that level of creativity, you're gonna have to earn it. almost nothing trent does is out-of-the-box or stock, not remotely close. downward spiral sealed the tomb on that approach.

reaktor can help you sound like you know things others don't. the online synth and fx database is insane. it makes it very easy to push into territories i never would have thought of on my own.


gregoire
del ubik

[DaveH]

Another vote for reactor here.
(You can actually learn it's programming
language and design your own synths from scratch).
(Not for the faint-hearted).

You will also want to catch up on ReWire and how it can help.
This is another way that you “connect” software programs together.

ReWire 2.0, the first cross-application technology to transfer both midi and audio seamlessly between applications.
ReWire was designed as the software equivalent of a multi-channel cable between two audio applications.

http://namm.harmony-central.com/WNAM...PR/ReWire.html
===============================================================

Here’s some good info on equipment nine inch nails are using:
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_nine_...ils/index.html

(They take samples of their stuff on the road)> Quote:
the entire synth and sample library is just under 100 MB. Keyboard controllers aside, the synth rig consists of two Emulator 4 Ultras, which, according to Hendrix, is actually making for a more consistent-sounding show. "We don't have a whole studio worth of gear out on the road that sounds different every night. The sounds are dead-on," he notes.

And:
Quote:
Most of the effects, I think, are fairly standard. Especially when you are dealing in a digital world, I like warmth and valves and stuff like that," Lemon continues. His outboard racks include Distressors and BSS EQ on the two main vocal chains (Reznor and Finck), Smart compressors on Reznor's and Lohner's keys and DA-88, Summit DCL-200s on Clouser's keys, dbx 160As on guitars, TLA 100 on bass guitar, and TC 5000 and Focusrite EQ on acoustic drums.

========================================

+++++++++ Hope above helps in some way ++++++++++

We have over twenty various soft synths here as well as a
system dedicated to Giga-Studio 3.0 and VSL Pro.
(Quality of soft synths really varies widely).

And I have been gathering hardward synths since the days
of the Prophet-5 and DX-7. (Have mint one’s I got new)
We have at least 35 various hardware keyboards and rack units. Plus a 60 module MOTM
modular that is being assemble right now.

(I am in work overload and can’t write all details at this time).

But collecting synths, and synth sounds is another
“dangerous” thing to start, be warned ……………………..

[not_so_new]

Thanks all. Great stuff.

So I already have an old 88 key Ensoniq SQ2 that I can used for a controller and after listening to the samples on the Reaktor 5 page I think I am going to go that route.

My next question would be are there any MIDI to USB converters out there? The back of the SQ2 is obviously just MIDI out and it would be so easy if I could convert that MIDI out to a USB connection to get into samplitude, is that possible?

I am using a Lynx AES16 card that has MIDI in but one of the DB25 I/O ports on my system is taken up by my AD-16X and I am not sure I can used the other DB25 I/O for MIDI.

I guess what I am asking is what is the best and or least expensive way to get the controller data into the computer? Can I get MIDI in on either DB25 on the AES16 card, can I get a USB device of some kind or is there a cheap MIDI card I can get that will work next to the AES16 card?

Thanks.

[Cojo]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

CUT--->My next question would be are there any MIDI to USB converters out there? The back of the SQ2 is obviously just MIDI out and it would be so easy if I could convert that MIDI out to a USB connection to get into samplitude, is that possible? <--CUT

I'm usig ESI usb midi interface.

/Cojo

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by Cojo

I'm usig ESI usb midi interface.

/Cojo

Great, thanks. So how does that show up in the DAW as an input? And I can use something like this with Samplitude then?

[sonicprojects]

Dear Reaktor fan!

The sonicprojects team announces the remake of the Oberheim OB-X. There's a feature never seen before in any other virtual device: slight individual detune of filters, oscillators and envelopes for every voice individually - like the real device

a real ob-x rev.2 itself was used for endless comparisons and tunes to copy the original behaviour - the result is extraordinary

visit us at:
http://www.sonicprojects.ch/

[six_wax]

(yes, Reaktor is very cool, but if you want a good heavy-tone workhorse for *making music* without having to invest too much overhead in learning about the finer points of synth design...)

just get an Access Virus and commence wreaking havoc.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by sonicprojects

Dear Reaktor fan!

The sonicprojects team announces the remake of the Oberheim OB-X. There's a feature never seen before in any other virtual device: slight individual detune of filters, oscillators and envelopes for every voice individually - like the real device

a real ob-x rev.2 itself was used for endless comparisons and tunes to copy the original behaviour - the result is extraordinary

visit us at:
http://www.sonicprojects.ch/

Dude, your posts are starting to look an awful lot like spam.

[drosophila]

I'd recommend an Alesis Ion. It lacks the polyphony of some of the more often mentioned gear, but has many things that help it stand out..

The basics?
8 voice polyphony, 3 osc per voice. Each osc has a degree of waveshaping capability.
12-source/12-destination modmatrix.
3 ADSR envelopes, all of which are loopable.
2 LFOs
2 Multi-Mode filters with tons of options, most of which are intended to loosely emulate some of the classic synths. General character is like an Oberheim mixed with an ARP and a very lush and big Unison similar to a Roland Jupiter-6.

Overall, it's none of these synths, but stands on its own well. Veryvery programmable and sits nicely within a mix. I've had mine since they were first released and though I want other synths, I can't see myself ever selling it - too versatile!

[Tibbon]

Get a Sidstation. It's limited in so many ways, but awesome in so many ways. It's rather like a Minimoog IMHO (not sound or interface-wise, but in it's limitations/awesomeness).

Stay away from Romplers.

Trent used a bit of modular maddness on his most recent album.

Sounding like NIN is hard, because you have to pick which album. Some things stay the same, but the The Fragile certainly doesn't sound like Pretty Hate Machine.

[JSt0rm]

www.modcan.com

Don't start out with something like this but dont disregard the power of analog. Just like with your compressors and eq, analog is still king in subtractive synthesis. The full understanding of this hit me when I could hear the difference in the envelopes from a real voltage envelope to a software envelope. Examples like this one go on and on and on.

You can tailor instruments to your exact needs by purchasing diffferent modules. Really the prices are cheap compared to all this other crazy stuff. My system ran me about $3600. I plan on expanding it of course but the depth I have now will keep me busy for a long time.

Just so you guys don't think I'm pimping one brand of modular here is a list of information from manufacturers to process and tutorials on many things. They also make modular synths as well.

http://www.synthesizers.com/links.html

[Cojo]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Great, thanks. So how does that show up in the DAW as an input? And I can use something like this with Samplitude then?

I don't know samplitude but usually the midi ports show up in your DAW and you can just asign them to any instrument, virtual or real!

/Cojo

[dagg]

I see many are happy with softsynths like Reaktor etc. But if best possible quality is goal for synthesizer operator (thus arranger, producer, composer), buying software for emulating analog VCO's or even DCO's is not sound advice. Especially when hardware costs almost as low as software. It is clumsier in operation, but professional needs to sacrifice abit in order to deliver highest quality.

By saying that, modern VSTi software managed to faithfully emulate sampling-based and VA synths (for example FM7 synthesis, Korg Legacy palette or Vanguard 'Virus killer').

Anyway, every composer or producer ultimate goal is to have his own 'special' distinguishing sound, which is usually obtained by carefully choosing many different sound modules (soft and hardware ones). It cannot be substituted by some VST monstersynth like Reaktor. Main role of a module synth is, you need a couple of characteristic sounds in hi-quality and that's all. You don't need all possible sounds, because no synth is best in all areas.

Finally, listeners are able to distinguish those different approaches, and label easier route as 'cheaper' music.


P.S. I tried out both routes and ended up sonically happier with combination of both worlds

[Cojo]

Originally Posted by dagg

I see many are happy with softsynths like Reaktor etc. But if best possible quality is goal for synthesizer operator (thus arranger, producer, composer), buying software for emulating analog VCO's or even DCO's is not sound advice. Especially when hardware costs almost as low as software. It is clumsier in operation, but professional needs to sacrifice abit in order to deliver highest quality.

By saying that, modern VSTi software managed to faithfully emulate sampling-based and VA synths (for example FM7 synthesis, Korg Legacy palette or Vanguard 'Virus killer').

Anyway, every composer or producer ultimate goal is to have his own 'special' distinguishing sound, which is usually obtained by carefully choosing many different sound modules (soft and hardware ones). It cannot be substituted by some VST monstersynth like Reaktor. Main role of a module synth is, you need a couple of characteristic sounds in hi-quality and that's all. You don't need all possible sounds, because no synth is best in all areas.

Finally, listeners are able to distinguish those different approaches, and label easier route as 'cheaper' music.


P.S. I tried out both routes and ended up sonically happier with combination of both worlds

I'm all with you when you say it's a good thing to use different synths for different things.

But the original DX7 was niether sample based or VA nor was all synths in the Legacy pack sample based. The Wavestation is the nearest to be sample based using wave tabels! Right should be right!

/Cojo

[Rufuss Sewell]

Uh, I don't think you should listen to the Juice Master when it comes to Reaktor. Reaktor 5 is extremely powerful and can be complex if you're trying to create your own synthesizers. But there are literally thousands of synths available for free on the N.I. site. Some are great and some are pretty lame, but the point is, they are pretty much endless and only cost the admission price to Reaktor. Just load up a synth and try out the presets, it's as easy as that. If you like something, tweak it a bit to make it sound the way you want.

As for NIN, The Downward Spiral... Trent's best work in my opinion... used a lot of Kurzweil K2000. For industrial madness, get a K2000 and the Shane Etter collection of over 5000 nutty industrial sounds. I think he sells them for about $200 now.

But asking what synth is going to give you the NIN sound is kind of like asking what violin is going to give you that London Philharmonic Orchestra sound. Trent probably owns every synth ever made, and he probably uses a lot of them when he makes an album. I know I've seen a big modular in the pictures from the new album... and that's supposedly his "stripped down" album.

For me I'd be perfectly happy with my trusty Kurzweil K2600 for acoustic sounds and samples, my Alesis Andromeda for the real analog stuff, and Reaktor for everything else.

But since I own a buttload of other analogs, plug-ins, and sample collections I'm pretty much in synth heaven!

Honestly though, if I had to pick one synth it would be the Kurzweil K2600.

[MikeMitchell]

Old thread but what the hell. Might want to pick up the digizine with trent on the cover or look it up online. He fessed up to using an alesis andromeda, and tons of NI products, absynth, battery, reaktor etc. Might want to download the 'only' session file from digi's website, you can get a feel for how he uses each. Good stuff. It might be worth checking out NI's demo versions of their vst synths. A good way to get a feel for what a dx7 and what the later versions sound like. The pro53 is sweet too, but the presets arent as nin imho. Might as well go ahead and pick up absynth and the arturia moog modulator, you wont regret it (unless you shell out for a real moog). Ive had absynth since its first release, it just keeps getting better... load up a self recorded sample and fukitup, doesnt get any better.
Good luck,
mike

[GYang]

Well VSTi are getting better and better.
I really like some of them (Stlylus, Virus, V Station, MTron), and acquired almost all available, specially duriung my initial excitement about DAW production.
I'm not sure, but I think that all software set me back for some 10 k or more.
Later I added plenty of analogue stuff (Moogs, MKS80, Omega 8, as well as, VA or sample-based sound modules)
What's difference?
Very often no big difference when you listen solo track.
But for fun I use to add tube DIs or preamps, EQ and comps to chain before analogue summing. Boy, do I hear difference?

Conclusion

If you do all in you computer, it will hardly be fair to recommend you 5 k analogue monsters as Omega8. Waste of rack space and cash.
But if you are addicted to get most of final product and like to enjoy the whole process (and most of my fellows like to see how big boxes work in real life - button, knobs, LEDs etc.) than VSTis are just masturbation vs nice, tasty chick.
I use VSTis a lot for fast production when client don't ask more.
For myself I prefer old, analogue way of interaction between various parts. And it DOES SOUND better and sit better in mixes.

[not_so_new]

Cool...

So just to get back up to speed (this thread is a little old) after a back order and a lost shipping address I finally ended up getting Reaktor 5.

WOW... I mean really nice sounding stuff. It is a PITA to learn but the "stock" sounds are great and the whole package sounds really really good. There are a few synths from the NI user forums that are priceless as well.

Anyway I am going to take most of the samples out to an amp for a little "reality check" and record them back into Samplitude but so far I am very very happy with the sounds out of this thing.

[flexoffset]

NIN uses Reaktor, Kontakt, Battery from native instruments among other hardware as mentioned previously.

A good MIDI to USB device is a MOTU MicroLite - it's bare bones but has 5 in/out ports.

Reaktor 5 is immensely complex to create new synths.
Unless you have a commanding knowledge of calculus, trig, hardware synth building, you should expect to have a 2 - 3 year learning curve before you do much of anything 'new' with it from scratch.

However, the existing user database is unf***ing believable.
I bounce a lot of R5 audio in the background in Logic since my G4 is so slow.

[MissionDifficult]

Another synth used on a lot of NIN tracks is the Prophet VS. Used as a synth as well as an FX unit. Also, Trent uses a lot of Metasonix stuff. You might look into getting one of their distortion units (TX-1, TX-2).