question about phase

wilkinswp · 25th January 2006

Not even certain if this is the right spot for this. I tracked a Rhodes this past weekend using an amp with two speakers. I placed an MD421 about three inches from the grille on one speaker and a 57 about the same distance from the grille on the other speaker. For the Rhodes, I also had a KM184 about 5 feet away from the amp.

Everything sounded fine when I recorded. . . actually wasn't thinking about phase issues as I'm pretty new with this. Anyway, I started playing back/listening in mono to the 2 Rhodes tracks from the mics directly on the amp. When I invert the polarity on one of these tracks, the signal is much fuller and louder listening in mono. I blended in a bit of the ambient track and thought I had something that would work. But, when I switch back to stereo in the context of the drums, bass etc, I feel like I'm losing some of my stereo image. So, I switched the phase back to normal on the Rhodes track and it seemed to sound a bit better. . . When I listen to all the tracks--drums, rhodes etc--in mono I can still hear the Rhodes without much trouble. . . it sounds OK. But when listening to all these tracks in mono and inverting the polarity on the Rhodes track, the Rhodes jumps out of the mix and is too loud.

I am correct in assuming that the Rhodes tracks are closer to being in phase when I invert the polarity on this track based on what I heard in mono soloing just the Rhodes tracks? But, am I also correct in assuming that whatever sounds best is what I should stick with? I'm planning to bounce the three Rhodes tracks to a single track to be used for mixdown by another engineer with considerable experience. Just don't want to muck this up. . .

I apologize for the ignorance--and for this novel--in advance. I'm open to suggestions, but not really interested in physics equations. Any advice on books, websites etc. is greatly appreciated.

dbbubba · 25th January 2006

It has been a LONG time since I recorded an actual Rhodes and when I did we used a Dyno-My-Piano modded unit (or whatever they were called) piped through two 1176s.

It sounds like something IS definitely out of phase.
It could be:
a) the Rhodes' circuit to produce the tremelo (I forget about this)
b.) the Rhodes has one of it's speakers polarity reversed
c.) you have a bad mic cable
4.) something else is 180 degree out of phase i the signal chain

I go with whatever the best sound is in stereo, but I'd make sure that when it is spread L/R it doesn't cause probelms in mono.

Danny Brown

wilkinswp · 25th January 2006

Thanks Danny. I really appreciate it.

Danny or anyone else. . . when I have tracks panned hard L/R and listen in mono, what problems should I be hearing? Thinness?

dbbubba · 25th January 2006

Yeah, thinning out.

You know... stereo-izing a track used to be a big delimma.
You could pan the original track one way and run it through a DDL with a sweep panned the other way, but mono was defiitely different. I never cared!
The slick way was to record the un-effected track through the DDL twice onto two different tracks on two different passes and pan the two FX tracks. You then had the delay characteristic of the DDL on both tracks. If you were REALLY happy with it you could erase the original if needed!

If I recorded a GTR track that had a stereo effect "built in" I would still double track the un-effected track! I'd record the original stereo sound and then have the player re-record a pass and I'd track only the un-effected side. This way it was both doubled AND had the same chorus effect (it was even better sounding!)

Then again... I track EVERYTHING and use what I want in the end!

Also, a GREAT box used by a lot of British engineers in the late '70s and early '80s was the big yellow MXR Dual Chorus pedal. It was AC powered. It also put out a straight signal and a chorused signal and it was all "in phase!" It sounded great in mono.
If you EVER see on eof these BUY IT!
If you don't like it, call me and I'll buy it from you!

Danny Brown

leadvox · 25th January 2006

Yeah, it sounds like something in one of the signal chains is 180 degrees out of phase (speaker, cable, etc.), but it also sounds like you like the exaggerated image caused by the hard panned out of phase signals. Just putting two mics on different speakers of the same amp, while giving you two different tones to blend together, will not generally result in a wide stereo image when panned hard L/R. I'm guessing that the two signals, when in phase with one another, are so similar that they effectively create a mono or near mono signal. This explains the loss of stereo image, and also the huge change in volume when the signals are put in phase with one another.

Your options are to either use the out of phase signals panned hard L/R, and sacrifice mono compatibility (I've done this on occasion in mixes, but personally would never do it for an instrument that plays a major role), or to flip the tracks into phase with one another and process them each differently, as dbubba suggested.

I hope that made sense.

25th January 2006	#1
wilkinswp Gear addict Joined: May 2005 Posts: 414 Thread Starter	question about phase Not even certain if this is the right spot for this. I tracked a Rhodes this past weekend using an amp with two speakers. I placed an MD421 about three inches from the grille on one speaker and a 57 about the same distance from the grille on the other speaker. For the Rhodes, I also had a KM184 about 5 feet away from the amp. Everything sounded fine when I recorded. . . actually wasn't thinking about phase issues as I'm pretty new with this. Anyway, I started playing back/listening in mono to the 2 Rhodes tracks from the mics directly on the amp. When I invert the polarity on one of these tracks, the signal is much fuller and louder listening in mono. I blended in a bit of the ambient track and thought I had something that would work. But, when I switch back to stereo in the context of the drums, bass etc, I feel like I'm losing some of my stereo image. So, I switched the phase back to normal on the Rhodes track and it seemed to sound a bit better. . . When I listen to all the tracks--drums, rhodes etc--in mono I can still hear the Rhodes without much trouble. . . it sounds OK. But when listening to all these tracks in mono and inverting the polarity on the Rhodes track, the Rhodes jumps out of the mix and is too loud. I am correct in assuming that the Rhodes tracks are closer to being in phase when I invert the polarity on this track based on what I heard in mono soloing just the Rhodes tracks? But, am I also correct in assuming that whatever sounds best is what I should stick with? I'm planning to bounce the three Rhodes tracks to a single track to be used for mixdown by another engineer with considerable experience. Just don't want to muck this up. . . I apologize for the ignorance--and for this novel--in advance. I'm open to suggestions, but not really interested in physics equations. Any advice on books, websites etc. is greatly appreciated.

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25th January 2006	#2
dbbubba Banned Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 7,099	It has been a LONG time since I recorded an actual Rhodes and when I did we used a Dyno-My-Piano modded unit (or whatever they were called) piped through two 1176s. It sounds like something IS definitely out of phase. It could be: a) the Rhodes' circuit to produce the tremelo (I forget about this) b.) the Rhodes has one of it's speakers polarity reversed c.) you have a bad mic cable 4.) something else is 180 degree out of phase i the signal chain I go with whatever the best sound is in stereo, but I'd make sure that when it is spread L/R it doesn't cause probelms in mono. Danny Brown

25th January 2006	#5
leadvox Gear nut Joined: Oct 2005 Location: IN Posts: 105	Yeah, it sounds like something in one of the signal chains is 180 degrees out of phase (speaker, cable, etc.), but it also sounds like you like the exaggerated image caused by the hard panned out of phase signals. Just putting two mics on different speakers of the same amp, while giving you two different tones to blend together, will not generally result in a wide stereo image when panned hard L/R. I'm guessing that the two signals, when in phase with one another, are so similar that they effectively create a mono or near mono signal. This explains the loss of stereo image, and also the huge change in volume when the signals are put in phase with one another. Your options are to either use the out of phase signals panned hard L/R, and sacrifice mono compatibility (I've done this on occasion in mixes, but personally would never do it for an instrument that plays a major role), or to flip the tracks into phase with one another and process them each differently, as dbubba suggested. I hope that made sense.