Headphone Mixes - Extreme Isolation???

[gsmelley]

Hi slutz.

Need your opinions. I find that, when tracking drums, everyone in the tracking room has there headphones turned up so loud that they are distorting. This happens on Sennheiser 280s, ATHM40s, and some pretty decent Sony's as well. Granted I am using the Furman HD system, which I don't think sounds exactly great, but it's utilitarian value outweighs it's not so stellar sound quality. I find that some of the musicians even have earplugs in with the cans over them. Is time to go to the Extreme Isolation headphones? I am apprehensive about them, so I would appreciate some feedback. I know I could buy one pair to try them out, but I'd rather just get 4 or 5 and be done with it.

Anyone using (used) them and want to share your feelings?
--

[bobby yarrow]

- I have a pair of them, and I often make the drummer wear them, especially if they need a loud click. They sound pretty alright, nothing wrong with them.

- Are you sure you're distorting the headphones? And not the headphone amp?

- What are you giving them in the headphone mix? I usually give don't put any drums in the cue mix. If I'm tracking a guitar and bass at the same time, with amps out of the room, which seems to often be the case, I'll give the guitarist and drummer a fair blend of the guitar and bass, and the bass player ton of bass, a bit of guitar, and (often) some kick. Basically, I try not to reinforce anything that's audible thru the headphones in the cue mix. The effect is that total isolation and really high volume aren't desireable.

[David@MVS]

Originally Posted by gsmelley

Hi slutz.
Is time to go to the Extreme Isolation headphones? I am apprehensive about them, so I would appreciate some feedback. I know I could buy one pair to try them out, but I'd rather just get 4 or 5 and be done with it.

Anyone using (used) them and want to share your feelings?
--

They sound OK. Muffled. Not a big deal as I just EQ that mix. Then they are fine.

They are marvelous when tracking drums and loud guitar amps....they really help alot. The music/click can be at a reasonable volume as the cans block out a good amount of sound (they claim 29 dbs).

Also they eliminate music/click bleed when recording soft vocals or acoustic.

Worth it.

Harvey Gerst offers a version of the "More Me" cans that have some isolation qualities at a cheaper price (seeing how you want to get 4-5). That might be worth some investigation.

Good luck,
David

[rewt_]

I have three pairs and use them a million times more than I thought I would. If they vanished or anything, I'd buy three new pairs yesterday.

[Berolzheimer]

Yes, please at the least save your musician's ears & get some isolating headphones. I often use Beyer dt-770's, they sound good & have much more isolation than most of the Sonys or AKGs or whatever. The EI cans probably have even a few dB more Iso, Maybe the MoreMe cans too.

[cdog]

I must beg the question, why do the musicians need headphones at all?

A lot of bands play much better all in the same room together with the amp volumes a little lower than normal, rather than isolating everybody's amp and working through headphones.

As a player, I can certainly attest that I let it go a bit more without headphones.

You sometimes have to supress your compulsion to have everything perfectly isolated and ideally recorded to get a better performance out of the musicians, especially drummers - who are very used to feeling the actual thump of the bass and guitar amps in their chest.

Do not underestimate the impact those sound waves flying around the room have on the performers.

All that being said - whew, and you just wanted to know if the Extreme headphones are good or not - some bands can play with headphones quite well.

A lot of it also depends on if you're playing with a click. If you are, obviously headphones are a must for at least one band member - usually the drummer. My preference is to feed the drummer the click through headphones, but have everyone else, sometimes including the singer (who sometimes wears in ear monitors or headphones and hears no one but himself), play along normally without headphones.

And, yes, the Extreme Isolation headphones rock.

[crypticglobe]

I recently stared using the shure "E" series ear buds instead of headphones. Both the E2 and E3's sound fantastic at about the same price as a good headphone. You have to buy plenty of the yellow foam inserts (clean ones for each new person that uses them).. but they are very cheap.

So far the artists have totally loved them. They really sound good. They completely block out external sounds so they don't have turn up as loud. There is almost no bleed so there is nothing to be picked up by external mics. For drummers... I will also often augment with the isolation phones for comfort and even a little more isolation of loud click tracks. The headphone is not plugged in... but just there to help them feel more "traditional" and keep them from worrying about the buds falling out.

Vocalists have REALLY liked the ear buds (as I have I in this application), and I have gotten better performances (pitch)... and there is again almost ZERO bleed. Very nice.

Sure... they take some getting used to... and I have had some guys just say no.. and for those guys I still have headphones. However... I am really liking these.

I have my own pair I wear around and use when I am getting sounds. They are great for that because they really are quite accurate... and almost completely block out the external signal of a CRANKED guitar amp... so you can actually move the mic around yourself and find a VERY nice spot for the mic.

As always....

JMTC....

[Mike Caffrey]

Check out the GK-Music Ultraphones and Superphones.

They cut by 29 and 20dB respecitvely and are bulit around Sony drivers.

Isolation phones are great. Keeps the click out of the drum mics, it's less fatiguing on the players and they all love being able to hear themselvese so clearly.

[Berolzheimer]

Originally Posted by crypticglobe

I recently stared using the shure "E" series ear buds instead of headphones. Both the E2 and E3's sound fantastic at about the same price as a good headphone. You have to buy plenty of the yellow foam inserts (clean ones for each new person that uses them).. but they are very cheap.

So far the artists have totally loved them. They really sound good. They completely block out external sounds so they don't have turn up as loud. There is almost no bleed so there is nothing to be picked up by external mics. For drummers... I will also often augment with the isolation phones for comfort and even a little more isolation of loud click tracks. The headphone is not plugged in... but just there to help them feel more "traditional" and keep them from worrying about the buds falling out.

Vocalists have REALLY liked the ear buds (as I have I in this application), and I have gotten better performances (pitch)... and there is again almost ZERO bleed. Very nice.

Sure... they take some getting used to... and I have had some guys just say no.. and for those guys I still have headphones. However... I am really liking these.

I have my own pair I wear around and use when I am getting sounds. They are great for that because they really are quite accurate... and almost completely block out the external signal of a CRANKED guitar amp... so you can actually move the mic around yourself and find a VERY nice spot for the mic.

As always....

JMTC....

I've been thinking about checking these out. Glad to hear you're liking them.

[T.RayBullard]

etymotics er-4s or 6s...outstanding.

[Doublehelix]

I've got a few pairs of the Extreme Isolation headphones, and they work great, and better yet, the support from the company is amazing!!!

I had cable go bad on me, I sent them an email, and I got an immediate response with an address to ship them back to. They were repaired and turned around *instantly*. They were only gone about a total of 6 days from the time I shipped them out until they were back in use in the studio.

Now that is service!!!

I will buy from these guys again, and again, and again... Good support buys customer loyalty. This is also why I buy from Mercenary.

[gsmelley]

Originally Posted by bobby yarrow

- I have a pair of them, and I often make the drummer wear them, especially if they need a loud click. They sound pretty alright, nothing wrong with them.

- Are you sure you're distorting the headphones? And not the headphone amp?

- What are you giving them in the headphone mix? I usually give don't put any drums in the cue mix. If I'm tracking a guitar and bass at the same time, with amps out of the room, which seems to often be the case, I'll give the guitarist and drummer a fair blend of the guitar and bass, and the bass player ton of bass, a bit of guitar, and (often) some kick. Basically, I try not to reinforce anything that's audible thru the headphones in the cue mix. The effect is that total isolation and really high volume aren't desireable.

Your probably right about the amp distorting. Regardless, it's too loud. The Furman system is both a blessing and a curse. They take some of the burden of creating a bunch of cue mixes off of the engineer, but giving that control to the musicians can sometime work against you. Sometimes they think they need something they don't in their cans. I always try to coach them and make suggestions (e.g. "you probably don't need any drums in your mix"), but it doesn't always stick.

Thanks for your feedback.

[warhead]

Originally Posted by Doublehelix

I've got a few pairs of the Extreme Isolation headphones, and they work great, and better yet, the support from the company is amazing!!!

John Gresko does a very good job of turning around repairs, which considering how many of those things we move is not too many by comparison. The new improved drivers and smaller ear cups (now reporting a -28db of iso) make them an even better deal than before.

But I wouldn't mix on them or anything! They are awesome for click tracks, drummers, hell I hand them to singers first and maybe 1 out of 20 says they're too tight or something. Great to keep bleed out of the mics, and allow the artist to monitor at much lower levels = better on the ears.

War

[gsmelley]

Originally Posted by cdog

I must beg the question, why do the musicians need headphones at all?

A lot of bands play much better all in the same room together with the amp volumes a little lower than normal, rather than isolating everybody's amp and working through headphones.

As a player, I can certainly attest that I let it go a bit more without headphones.

You sometimes have to supress your compulsion to have everything perfectly isolated and ideally recorded to get a better performance out of the musicians, especially drummers - who are very used to feeling the actual thump of the bass and guitar amps in their chest.

Do not underestimate the impact those sound waves flying around the room have on the performers.

All that being said - whew, and you just wanted to know if the Extreme headphones are good or not - some bands can play with headphones quite well.

A lot of it also depends on if you're playing with a click. If you are, obviously headphones are a must for at least one band member - usually the drummer. My preference is to feed the drummer the click through headphones, but have everyone else, sometimes including the singer (who sometimes wears in ear monitors or headphones and hears no one but himself), play along normally without headphones.

And, yes, the Extreme Isolation headphones rock.

I like your approach CDog. I have been planning to experiment with the approach you suggest, but my sessions have been tight on time and I've been working with some bands that don't really have their shit together in terms of being prepared for recording. So, expecting to get keeper anything other than drums has been a dream. Although, maybe giving them 2 days to rehearse and one day to track might work out better. The way it's been going is that we spend Friday night getting sounds. Saturady getting keeper drum takes, then Sunday doing bass, guitars, vocals, etc. (I'm a weekender for now, but not for long). Or, they write their songs before coming into the studio... if they don't want to pay my rate to write. But I must admit, I do enjoy working with musicians to develop their songs. I guess there are pros and cons to everything.

in agreement with you: I do believe that a good performance of a good song is far more valuable than the quality of the recording or the production. (viva la GBV... wait can I say that? they broke up)

[De chromium cob]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

Check out the GK-Music Ultraphones and Superphones.

They cut by 29 and 20dB respecitvely and are bulit around Sony drivers.

Isolation phones are great. Keeps the click out of the drum mics, it's less fatiguing on the players and they all love being able to hear themselvese so clearly.

Another big ups for the GK Music Ultraphones.. Sony 7506 drivers ..Drummers always rave about mine after using them for the first time. I also have Ultimate Ear Superfi 5 Pro in ears that are great for isolation and sound quality, but they dont get shared with the bands.... Just for recording loud shows and for MP3s on my E815 phone.....

[eligit]

remote audio high noise headset= very impressive isolation. decent sound. very useful for elec guitar mic placement. really wish they had a little more high end.

all in all totally worth it.

[bobby yarrow]

Originally Posted by cdog

I must beg the question, why do the musicians need headphones at all?

I was recording a solo singer/songwriter last week, as bitched about elsewhere, and remarkably she wanted headphones, even tho it was just her & her guitar.

[gsmelley]

Thanks for everyone's input! you guys rule! I am going to look into all of your suggestions.

[dbbubba]

The need for cans works both ways.

I have worked with some of the most accurate vocalists in the biz who are in the studio every day and they only use the cans for timing. They barely wear them. These are studio vocalists who cut radio IDs and they sing the most dense and tightest harmonies in any style. This is some of the most demading vocal work that ever goes on in the studio on a technical sense. We used to laugh and wonder what the chords were that they were singing and a VERY big time studio session player said, "THose chords with EVERY note in the scale in them!" They also knock out about 24 IDs in a three hour session! I never rewound to check anything. I'd just arm a new track and record the next layer or stack without touching the talback mic button. The leader would say, "next", we'd move down about :15 seconds on the tape and start recording the first pass.

So.... headphone volume can be a HUGE crutch!

A good friend of mine engineered most of the '80's era Stevie Nicks LPs and he actually had a Crown DC300a across her headphones before she was happy! That sumbich didn't overdrive!

So. make 'em happy.... even if it doesn't make sense!

Danny Brown

[True North]

I highly reccomend these;

http://www.remoteaudio.com/hn7506.htm

They are not only excellant for reducing headphone bleed, but they really come in handy for mic placement when tracking on loud instruments (Guitar Amps, Drums).

I have noticed a big difference when working on my guitar sounds. I can go in front of a cranked amp and start moving the mics around to get an idea of what positioning I prefer.

I own a pair and they are outstanding.

[gsmelley]

Originally Posted by True North

I highly reccomend these;

http://www.remoteaudio.com/hn7506.htm

They are not only excellant for reducing headphone bleed, but they really come in handy for mic placement when tracking on loud instruments (Guitar Amps, Drums).

I have noticed a big difference when working on my guitar sounds. I can go in front of a cranked amp and start moving the mics around to get an idea of what positioning I prefer.

I own a pair and they are outstanding.

I bet those are awesome, but I can't afford 3 or 4 of them. I lost an auction on eBay for a pair of audiologist's testing headphones that had a very similar look to them. I was going to give 'em a shot. I wonder how hard it would be to find the Sony drivers and mount them into some standard ear muffs yourself? Probably not worth the effort.

Anybody tried the Vic Firth cans?

[Reticuli]

The Extreme Isolation Headphones (EIH) will run you about $90 shipped and give you just over 20dB of isolation in the real world...much better than the Sennheisers. Though they’re rated at 29dB attenuation, I don’t think they isolate quite as well as the ER4S. They sound like a 70's vinyl head's wet dream...slightly warm of neutral, zero grain, smooth as a baby's bottom. Monitoring cymbals or connected to a bright digital source, they'll sound pretty much like you'd want them to. And they can play surprisingly loud and undistorted considering the warnings about them being blown out by too much current. I can run them loudly over 20dB ER-20 musicians’ earplugs and they don't become excessively rumbly, lumpy, or anything else. They aren't the most transparent headphones, but are very resolved for their given transparency and warmth...if that makes any sense. Unlike the original Sony 7506/V6, there are no sonic anomalies that will artificially enhance the perception of resolution. You'll hear ambience and harmonic overtones quite well considering this. These sound a lot more natural to me than the HN-7506, and the difference just gets even bigger at high volumes where I found the need to crank the HN-7506 up excessively to hear the same amount of definition and separation when blasting over musicians earplugs.

The Remote Audio HN-7506 will run you about $300 and give at least 25-30dB of real isolation. While the EIH is built around the cheaper Air Force hearing protector, this one is built around something like the US Navy-type or better civilian aviation ear protectors. I feel more cautious with them due to the price and the complexity of the design, however. There's a lot of metal on plastic and tiny little pieces that could potentially wear or break on it. I abuse the simple all-plastic EIH’s quite a lot and they never give me problems. I don't like how the HN_7506's drivers are almost as close to your ear as the original Sony, since I tend to get a little sore after an hour or two. The ear cushions are filled with super squishy gel, rather than just being stiffer foam inside like on the EIH. This is what makes them better isolaters but doesn't do as good a job keeping those drivers away from your ear. There was a heavy duty (HD) version that had oil-filled cushions, but people found it too uncomfortable on the head to justify the small additional isolation so it was discontinued. Think of the standard HN-7506 as sounding like the original Sony 7506/V6 but with the earpads squeezed against your ears and that awful delayed energy edge to the treble at the 8khz range totally absent. In the Sony it must be the driver housing that's causing that problem. Having that crud in the highs gone is a big improvement over the Sony. Without this they don't sound nearly as resolved as the Sony version does, yet I think they retain some of the transparent liquidity to the mids that many find appealing. So it's transparent, but not as high resolution as I'd like...especially at high volumes. They also have the Sony's upper bass emphasis in the low-end which superficially can make it easier to pick out beats. Yet I think the overall lack of resolution at high loads makes it more difficult to separate overlapped bass lines than the EIH. I find the HN-7506 almost as fatiguing as the MDR-7506 because of this lumpyness and low resolution. I'm just not a big fan of these drivers, I think. Certainly there is so much isolation with these headphones that even with the loudest monitors at your flanks they're still excellent monitoring headphones. I just prefer the others. I used the EIH to watch Bladerunner last night, and can't imagine it ever sounding any better in the theater during the '80s.

The ER4S is quite simply the ultimate in resolution and transient attack for any isolating ear/headphone. The sound is always tight, neutral, and controlled to a fault. They are so perfectly neutral, extended, and controlled that the beats are more easily distinguished than on the HN-7506 without needing the upper bass emphasis. If you put them in the right way, they'll always give you around 25dB of isolation. They're my choice for airline travel music listening, something their isolation and sound quality is perfect for. My only problem with them is you can't really take them on and off quickly many times over the course of several hours without either discomfort or severe annoyance. Once you get them in correctly you'll want (and probably need) to keep them in. The average price is around $250.

[Zeppelin4Life]

I need a pair badly. I mix in the same room, and the singer sometimes might crank the phones so loud the mix goes sharp. Its a real thing! I may pick them up..I think you have to order them right? Last week I blew all my $ on new Mogami cables though, but this week I can afford a pair or two of these I suppose...

[Reticuli]

Yes, you have to order the EIH's.