Bass tone is sucking, help?

[Sean Oneil]

To put it mildly, I am having problems with my gear concerning my bass tone.

I suspect the problem might lie in my bass (Mexican Fender P-Bass -a starter bass as I viewed it-)

I thought it sounded OK until I took delivery of my Event ASP8s, which have revealed my bass tone's true level of suck.

I am a guitar player of roughly 19 years, but am just a beginner at Bass (about a year into that.) Therefore, I am completely lost when it comes to good bass guitars, or good bass amps.

I thought I might find some help here in that area.

Can anyone suggest some good, versitle basses and direct recording preamp solutions?

I play 2 styles, clean and dirty :) The problem with my current tone is I find it flat, lifeless, dull, etc. I need something that will sound full and even, and one that won't shave off everything over 1Khz. Despite it just being a bass, I like to hear the harmonics coming off the strings and the attack of the pick/fingers, etc.

So anyways, any nudging in the right direction would be very helpful. I am literally looking for somewhere to begin, and I will take it from there.

Thanks! :)

[covert]

Originally Posted by Sean Oneil

To put it mildly, I am having problems with my gear concerning my bass tone.

I suspect the problem might lie in my bass (Mexican Fender P-Bass -a starter bass as I viewed it-)

It probably isn't the bass. Although there is variance among them, the mexi precisions are usually at least decent.

I thought it sounded OK until I took delivery of my Event ASP8s, which have revealed my bass tone's true level of suck.

How does it sound played through a decent bass rig? How are you recording it?

Can anyone suggest some good, versitle basses and direct recording preamp solutions?

Use the search function. Lots of discussions about this stuff. One that doesn't come up too often is the Dunlop MXR Bass DI+.

I play 2 styles, clean and dirty :) The problem with my current tone is I find it flat, lifeless, dull, etc. I need something that will sound full and even, and one that won't shave off everything over 1Khz. Despite it just being a bass, I like to hear the harmonics coming off the strings and the attack of the pick/fingers, etc.

When were the strings changed last?

[Glenn Kuras]

Just a question, but when you do a mix down and get it out in your car stereo or home stereo does it still sound the same? Reason I ask is if your room is not tooned right, then you really might not be hearing the bass properly to begin with..

Glenn

[fonman]

My .02 cents on bass says (assuming you don't have gear problems and that you can play decent):
1) Strings - I buy stainless roundwound. Too bright at first (I'd rather cut highs than boost them), but last longer, and sound good after several boilings.
2) Strings - It really is that critical to good tone. Don't let anyone lay that "Duck Dunn never changed his strings" crap on you. New sounding strings are crucial.
3) Dial your rig in like this: Cut the bass knob all the way off. Adjust mids and highs to a level of voice and clarity you want, then turn up the bass knob until you get the power and depth without mud that you want. Too much bass is counter productive. I like mids between 800 to 1600 for to be the "voice" of my finger style tone. Less for pick & slap. Treble adjusted for clarity without harshness, Bass adjusted to power without muddiness. Different rigs have different sweet spots, but the voice is usually in the mids.
4) Compression/limiting - just a touch (-3 GR) of 2:1 semi quick attack and release (whatever you can milk without distortion), and then followed by a peak limiter knocking off about a db or 2.
5) I like a little hair on my bass sound. Ampeg is my fave, but using the above guide, I can dial in a respectable tone on just about anything.
If you have pretty decent gear, and can control the bass, your tone should be pretty good now.

[TAVD]

I did a very simple mod to my MIJ P-Bass. I installed a mini toggle switch to bypass the tone & volume controls. It made a huge difference. They're notorious for having lousy control pots.

[fonman]

Originally Posted by Sean Oneil

I suspect the problem might lie in my bass (Mexican Fender P-Bass -a starter bass as I viewed it-).

It may be also the setup. Since you're a guitar player, you're probably familiar with setting action, intonation, etc. Pickup height will want to be roughly 3/16ths +/- 1/16th and balanced low to hi. If it sets up ok and pickups don't do stupid stuff like crackle/distort, no output, etc... I would assume that it's ok. I've played Mex P's before and when setup properly, they are fine.
I personally like the PJ or dual soapbar basses myself. Split pickups for punchy hifi (great for slap), front pickup for traditional P bass sound, and rear pickup for lead type tone (Jaco-esque sound). I like Bartolini pickups best, but EMG's have there value too (especially for hifi tone). Some Seymore Duncan's are also nice, but Bartolini is my fave, and EMG #2.

Originally Posted by Sean Oneil

Can anyone suggest some good, versitle basses and direct recording preamp solutions?

I have used (cheap= less than $300) (listed in order of preference):
Pod XT - Nice. Some very usable stuff. Gotta tweak !! 8 out of 10
Tech21: PSA, TriAC, and BDDI - all fine, gotta tweak. I'll rate them 7 out of 10.
Countryman - Great straight DI for the money if your bass sounds good. Gotta do some post processing if you want to add dirt.
Not cheap - (over $1K):
Ampeg SVT (I use an SVT-II non-pro) -> Speaker of choice. Many use 10's But I like 15's. -> Mic of choice. I like EV RE27, But even a 57 sounds great with this rig.
The Ampegs are IMO the best. However, other amp's I've played that are damn fine are (not in order of greatness):
Mesa Boogie M-2000
GK 800RB
Ampeg SVT200T (solid state)
Demeter bass pre (forget the model, older one)
Ampeg SVP (preamp)
SWR Redhead
Eden Combo
Bassman 4x10 (old one) (They have there own sound. A matter of taste, but I like them).
The little GK 700 & 1001 wedges sound great, but I've never owned one.

Suck gear's number is legion, but I can usually scratch out 80% of a decent tone from anything that's functioning properly. Usually.
That's 25 years of tweaking for bass tone. I hope some of it helps. Good luck.

[fonman]

Originally Posted by TAVD

I did a very simple mod to my MIJ P-Bass. I installed a mini toggle switch to bypass the tone & volume controls. It made a huge difference.

Man, I almost had a LMFAO moment. I thought at first read you were going to suggest the best sounding switch setting was off (meaning completely). But I get what you're saying. Not sure I would go to the trouble, but I get it.
I have, however, soldered small caps on the tone pots, sheilded cavity, put ferrite beads, etc. But just to eliminate problems like light noise, etc.
Bottom line: I've never had a bass tone suck (and be the basses fault) with proper setup, new strings, and Bartolini's or EMG pickups loaded with fresh batteries. So I guess those are my salt, pepper, onion and garlic of bass tone.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Trancetones]

Good advice by Fonman. I've been waiting anxiously for a thread where I can provide input and Bass is my game so I'll offer my 2 cents. Love the Ampeg SVT for a classic round bubble tone. I personally record from the built in DI from my SWR Interstellar Overdrive which is a super clean hi-fidelity tube tone (EL84's replaced with NOS tubes), you can dial in the tube overdrive (12AX7 replaced with NOS tubes) to get it just to the right level of beef (from subtle to ridiculous mayhem.) The overdrive also increases the sensitivity coming off the strings so you can get nicer harmonics but it also enhances any sloppy playing. I'm using a US Fender Jazz Deluxe 5 which has a great neck and great tone, but a very limited tonal range. It really only has one great sound (with minor variations depending on the pickup blend and eq) but that one great sound is warm, clean and tasty (like good p sy ) New strings are key, but not too new. I use Rotosound Swingbass Stainless Roundwounds and they sound perfect after about 2 weeks of playing/stretching. Another way to achieve nicer harmonics and overall better tone is with an onboard active pre-amp. There are lots of nice reasonably priced basses so play as many as you can and find out what tone you like. My P-Bass has a little more natural growl than my Jazz, but doesn't get much use nowadays because the neck is shot. I did prefer the P to my J for reggae especially if when using palm muting. If you can find a used Raven Labs PHA-1 Instrument Preamp you can get some nice solid state bass tone for about $200-, but sadly Raven Labs is no more I've read good things about the A-Design Reddi for a DI. The Bottom Line though (pun intended) is that most of your tone comes from your fingers and on the Bass pay attention to your muting and getting the note fretted perfectly.

[Dougie Murray]

try the aphex systems bass aural exciter

www.aphex.com

its a blue stomp box that makes your tone clean and smooth and will enhance overdrive as well and can be used as a di

[fonman]

pay attention to your muting and getting the note fretted perfectly.

Very true.
Also, practice staccato playing, and getting the notes to bark accents on command like a drummer works his kit. That much is definately in the fingers. Sounds easy, but I still practice that crap.

[wwittman]

hmmmm i'm ALSO a professional bass guitarist as well as a prodcuer/engineer and I have to say much of my advice is quite different.


a) i like brand new strings ALWAYS for recording. No matter what they are, flat, round, nylon taped... new strings sound better and are more clearly and precisely in tune (once stretched well)

b) a Mexi P is adequate but nothing great certainly... so depending on your definition of "sucking" that may indeed be a bigger part of the prob than some others think.

c) I think a good bass amp is ESSENTIAL.
In fact some decent (but unexceptional) bass sounds can be had DI with a very good DI, a VERY VERY good bass guitar, and a great player.
Most of the time, people who just DI the bass get SOMETHING recorded cleanly, but not a GREAT bass sound.

d) aren't you getting tired of lettered items? I am.

5) you didn't say what sort of sound you LIKE and what sort of sound you want.
I personally think a 60's Ampeg B-15 is almost always terrific for a wider range of music and sound styles than one might imagine.

VI) whatever mic pre you are recording your entire record with will be just as good on bass guitar.

Last) Guitar players may know where the notes are all right, but they don't play LIKE bass players.
That IS a part of it.
I have seen guitarists pick up a bass guitar that already is recording sounding really good and make it sound bright, small and flimsy.
Part of what bass players work on IS making the note sound 'right' in every position.

hope this helps, some.

[js1]

Originally Posted by wwittman

b) a Mexi P is adequate but nothing great certainly... so depending on your definition of "sucking" that may indeed be a bigger part of the prob than some others think.

I'm in the market for a new bass. Any bass that you particularly like to record? Music styles similar to those in your sig...

js

[Sean Oneil]

Wow, some really great replies in this thread. Thanks to everyone for taking time to contribute.

I agree that playing bass takes a (somewhat) fundamentally different approach than playing guitar. I think that the discipline of fretting and striking each note just right is something that should be sought by guitar players as well as bass players.

I have a pretty good read on my bass now. I can get around some of the peaks and vallys by fretting a note harder or softer, and/or picking the string at different velocity in different places.

The problem lies in the fact that the sound is just somewhat, undefined. There are probably some more tweeks I could try with an EQ, etc. but that's not usually the best approach in my eyes.

I have been using my Mesa recto recording pre on clean channel as a direct input pre for bass recording. It's really versitle in what sounds it can deliver, but you can always hear the character of the guitar or bass that is plugged into it.

That's why I think my bass may be the culprit. I am just real picky about everything, so I guess the next logical step is to go out and start playing more basses and bass amps.. same way I learned about guitars, etc.

This thread has given me some good direction, so thanks again to all who contributed with you experience. It's very much appreciated!! :)

[Jason Poulin]

Consider your room if it's not treated.

How can you mix bass when you can't hear it?

all corners in the room should be bass trapped to have a more accurate sound of what's the bass is actually playing!


Good luck


Jason

[rainsinvelvet]

I used to have trouble with my bass tones untill I bought an ampeg svt and got a 8x10 cab. Done deal. For rock music this is it for me! Finally I heard the tone I hear on all of my favorite records.. I'm sure there are tons of other cool things out there, but man the Ampeg svt tone is so nice...

Originally Posted by Dougie Murray

try the aphex systems bass aural exciter

www.aphex.com

its a blue stomp box that makes your tone clean and smooth and will enhance overdrive as well and can be used as a di

I used this often before I got the SVT and had good results.. Seems like a cool product.

ERic

[mdsmith64]

I'm gonna third the motion for checking your room treatment. I had the unfortunate experience of mixing half a project in one room with acceptable bass response and then having to move to another room with horrible response. Guess what...the bass was out of control. Mixed tracks that sounded great before were sketchy at best. Unmixed tracks were impossible. Bass trapping made a huge difference. Huge....

Room treatment ain't very slutty, but damn it sure plays a big role in how all that slutty gear performs to the ear. Why spend slutty amounts of money and then use it in a room with 30 dB dips in the low end? Hmmm?


Best Regards,

Mike.

[wwittman]

If monitoring is the problem, then commercial CD's played in that environment will ALSO have the same "problems"... that's an easy way to find out if it's your minitors or not.

[David@MVS]

Originally Posted by Sean Oneil

To put it mildly, I am having problems with my gear concerning my bass tone.

I suspect the problem might lie in my bass (Mexican Fender P-Bass -a starter bass as I viewed it-)

I thought it sounded OK until I took delivery of my Event ASP8s, which have revealed my bass tone's true level of suck.

I am a guitar player of roughly 19 years, but am just a beginner at Bass (about a year into that.) Therefore, I am completely lost when it comes to good bass guitars, or good bass amps.

I thought I might find some help here in that area.

Can anyone suggest some good, versitle basses and direct recording preamp solutions?

I play 2 styles, clean and dirty :) The problem with my current tone is I find it flat, lifeless, dull, etc. I need something that will sound full and even, and one that won't shave off everything over 1Khz. Despite it just being a bass, I like to hear the harmonics coming off the strings and the attack of the pick/fingers, etc.

So anyways, any nudging in the right direction would be very helpful. I am literally looking for somewhere to begin, and I will take it from there.

Thanks! :)

Nah, tone is mostly the player...since you play guitar you know that a well setup mediocre guitar in the hands of a good player will sound like a good player is playing it.

So I am not saying you are bad, but that the guitar is fine enough (check the setup though).

I have had very good results with the SansAmp Bass DI. It's cheap to...like $190 or so.

Check your monitors with a bass rich commercial CD you are very familiar with and feel has a good base guitar sound. If that CD sounds good and after you have checked your guitar's setup, check out the SansAmp from any guitar mart.

Cheap test AND you can return it if it doesnt help.

Good luck,
David

[cdog]

Try plugging it into a tube amp, ANY tube amp, and micing it.

[Jason Poulin]

Originally Posted by wwittman

If monitoring is the problem, then commercial CD's played in that environment will ALSO have the same "problems"... that's an easy way to find out if it's your minitors or not.

I disagree. When listening to commercial cd's you're not making critical decision on where the bass should lie. It's already been done.


I listened to many commercial cd's on the studio monitors and thought they sounded great but when mixing, it was like driving a car in the dark.


Jason

[GPl]

Originally Posted by wwittman

Last) Guitar players may know where the notes are all right, but they don't play LIKE bass players.
That IS a part of it.
I have seen guitarists pick up a bass guitar that already is recording sounding really good and make it sound bright, small and flimsy.
Part of what bass players work on IS making the note sound 'right' in every position.

hope this helps, some.

I'm a guitar player and have also played bass, but it not's my "main" instrument. It usually takes me some time to get the sound to sit right on the bass if I havn't played it for a while. It's usually trying to shake guitar habits and play the bass with the right technique. And I tried all kinds of diff. techniques to get the right tone but always end up using my own messed up way to do it... but it works. You need to be intimate with the instrument at hand to really get it to sing for you.

"What do bass and guitar players have in common? Nothing!"

[u b k]

i'm gonna chime in with the others, and give you the response that is neither sexy nor satisfactory, but is nevertheless essential: it's you.

i've had the joy of playing with bass players who play so badass all i can do is laugh sometimes as i'm grooving along on the kit. they can sit down with the most mediocre of rigs and produce a tone that is lively and spankin' and a lay track that is engaging and hypnotic.

if your tone is *sucking*, as you say it is, there is no way you can credibly lay that on the doorstep of your gear. it's a burden you, and you alone, must bear.

the good news is that you now have direction and focus, a new landscape to expand and reinvent your musical gifts. the bad news is you're gonna suck for a while.

all the more reason to stick with it.

please do not waste your precious life's moments chasing the tail of endless distractions by putting any more focus or energy into gear right now. find an incredible bass teacher, and invest your time (and a lot less money) with the instrument. just a few lessons and consistent woodshedding for a month will produce results that will stun you.

it really is ALL IN THE FINGERS. ignore this at your own peril. face the challenge, and enjoy it.


gregoire
del ubik

[fonman]

Originally Posted by u b i k

it really is ALL IN THE FINGERS. ignore this at your own peril. face the challenge, and enjoy it.

I disagree with this. Good tone is a combination of many things: Technique, ability to hear, discern, and adjust accordingly, setup/strings, quality of gear, etc...
I will agree that the best gear in the world will not correct crappy technique, however, to say its all in the fingers is an over simplification.
Great tone's like Geddy's, Chris Squire's, Flea's, etc. are recipes that have many components that have been selected to work together towards a sum that is greater than it's individual parts. They are also designed to fit the band sound. I think Geddy's bass sound is great, but paired with Willie Nelson... I don't know.
Too many factors to quantize easily. But, from my experience, the types of bass tone decisions that I've made were often more corrective than anything else. I would ask myself: How can I help eliminate mud and masking, and be heard better without being too loud ? A question like that will offer up many solutions that will involve technique, gear, setup, hiring a bassist, etc.
Just ask yourself questions, and fix problems. After a while you will be relatively content with your bass tone, but the very nature of a good musician is to rarely be fully satisfied.

[mrbowes]

I suggest changing the pickups and strings. I personally noticed an improvement in tone when I upgraded from Fender MIJ pickups to EMGs (PJ) and from roundwound strings to TI Jazz flatwound strings.

Now I won't go back to roundwound. I just love the feel of TI Jazz flats. They are top quality, and you know that from the moment you feel them.

[WidgetNinja]

Originally Posted by Sean Oneil

The problem with my current tone is I find it flat, lifeless, dull, etc. I need something that will sound full and even, and one that won't shave off everything over 1Khz.

I actually boost the crap out of 1-2.2Khz
That's where all the bass harmonics and attack live.... IMO.

[69 Sound]

Alot of great advice and suggestions so far...

Coming from a bass players perspective and without actually hearing the instrument in question, I will say that I've never been overly impressed with the stock pickups on any of the MIM Fenders. Great instruments, but lousy pickups for the most part (yes there are some exceptions) But this would probably be the first place I'd look into, after that it's all in the players hands.

One thing you might try doing is this:

Take a trip down to the local music shop with your bass and check it out side by side with a USA P-bass. Chances are good if you still hear the same issues with your bass and not the USA P-bass it's the pickups which is a simply problem to address.

Now... If they both basically sound the same to you and your still not happy, then it's either your playing, technique, fretting, etc. or you are looking for another tone that you just aren't going to get from a P-bass.

Keep in mind that bass is no different then guitar in the respect that a strat is never going to sound like a les paul, and a les paul is never going to sound like a strat. The same applies here; If you want the sound of a Warwick you're not gonna get it out of a P-bass, nor are you going to get it out of an Alembic.

Hope this helps a bit...

Regards,

Chris

[fonman]

Originally Posted by 69 Sound

If you want the sound of a Warwick you're not gonna get it out of a P-bass

That's the best advertisement for buying a P-Bass I've read yet

[SoulSpace]

If you suck, can't help you there...

But if you don't then, try the A-Designs Reddi. Do a search. I picked one up and it is pretty pheonomenal on the tones this thing can produce. You want full and warm...BAM.

I do agree with new strings. Whatever your preference. Try a few. I am a round wound guy.

But what do I know, I am a mainly a keyboardist.

[DAWgEAR]

Many good points.

Here's another angle: is it really the bass that is off?

If other aspects of your arrangement aren't working with the bass rhythmically and sonically, no amount of expense will sound right. The kick drum is particularly noteworthy if it is not locked in with the bass and if the frequencies, attacks, and releases of the kick and bass are not complementing one another.

It has been my experience that once the arrangement grooves with the bass and the drums (kick particularly) are properly compressed and EQd, the bass sound that previously was "sucking" magically falls into place with very little additional fuss.

My experience is that how the kick is compressed and EQd has a lot to do with how the bass will be percieved.

Something to consider.