MasterBuss Limiters ... the lesser of 2 evils ...?
Rep
Thread Starter
#1
18th January 2006
Old 18th January 2006
  #1
Lives for gear
 
Rep's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
MasterBuss Peak Limiting... the lesser of 2 evils ...?

FOR PEAK LIMITING;
What is the lesser of the 2 evils for you, on your MIX Master Fader.?

...Analog limiter ;
Pro; Analog sweetness, Better glue.
Con: extra conversion, loss of depth, add harshness.

...Digital Limiter;
Pro; Fast digital accuracy, NO conversions, Total recall
Con ; harsher sounding when pushed , no added sweetness

Many places are using both...

I wonder if It IS really sonically worth the extra DA/AD step,
just to add a ANALOG limiter to catch a few peaks.

i.e.... will the benefits of having A Fast Analog limiter for the extra 3db,
be worth the sound degradation and loss of depth with the extra Converter step.

Other threads with DA/AD loop test , show the sound harshness of doing this
.... how be it small, but was still noticeable ! (even with the top Names in converters)..

Made me want to get everything sound wise out, then only AD once !
With a Digital limiter just to catch some occasional peaks , no more then 1-3db.

Could it be that for the purest sound , Digital could be the lesser of the 2 ...! ?



.
#2
18th January 2006
Old 18th January 2006
  #2
Lives for gear
 
opentune's Avatar
 

I heard good things about the Aphex dominator. An engineer buddy of mine
strongly recommended that unit.
He´s using a HD2 PT system -- Tascam M600 (plus outboard) -- then back
through an 192 into the computer. He loves it and he was talking about
very good peak limiting and he also mentioned good sonic quality of
that certain unit.

I´ll go to his place this friday and investigate....

In case some interesting facts come to surface i´ll post my experience!
Rep
Thread Starter
#3
18th January 2006
Old 18th January 2006
  #3
Lives for gear
 
Rep's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune

I´ll go to his place this friday and investigate....

In case some interesting facts come to surface i´ll post my experience!
Keep us informed .
#4
18th January 2006
Old 18th January 2006
  #4
Lives for gear
 
opentune's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rep
Keep us informed .
Ok, see you guys on friday! Hopefully this thread has turned into a pile of information on peak limiting ´til i get back, since i´m very eager to learn
more about this subject in particular!
#5
18th January 2006
Old 18th January 2006
  #5
Lives for gear
 
AlexLakis's Avatar
 

I think "add harshness" is definately a characteristic of digital limiting as well.

I believe I have also seen tests on this board where additional D/A-A/D conversion has produced no change in the signal (complete phase cancellation). I might be getting that confused with some "bouncing" threads, tho...

Personally, I've ruled out additional D/A-A/D conversion as a "bad thing." It doesn't result in any tangible difference that I can hear, and I'm sure 99.9% of listeners won't be able to hear a difference if there is one. So, basically, if you can quantifiably HEAR the difference between your analog and digial limiter, I would say it's more than worth it to go back out and in again.
Rep
Thread Starter
#6
18th January 2006
Old 18th January 2006
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Rep's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexLakis
and I'm sure 99.9% of listeners won't be able to hear a difference if there is one. So, basically, if you can quantifiably HEAR the difference between your analog and digial limiter, I would say it's more than worth it to go back out and in again.
thumbsup


One thread , that was looping High end converters,
showed that there is noticible small amount of loss after DA/AD,

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showt...highlight=gold
even the best ones seam to get something of a hit... with lesser ones getting more.


What do you like using for your setup and work flow,
In your Findings of what works the best for You !?
#7
18th January 2006
Old 18th January 2006
  #7
Lives for gear
 
GYMusic's Avatar
For me, when I need limiting with minimal coloration, I go for the Aphex Dominator II or a pair of Aphex 661. They do what they're supposed to with no BS hype.
Rep
Thread Starter
#8
18th January 2006
Old 18th January 2006
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Rep's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune
Ok, see you guys on friday! Hopefully this thread has turned into a pile of information on peak limiting ´til i get back, since i´m very eager to learn
more about this subject in particular!
Yep ... Me too,!

After a great mix , there is nothing like a bad peak limit ,
that will just destroy the vibe and energy of all that hard work.
short of giving it to the Mastering,
it is like a final placement that can Make or break the Songs flow ...
#9
18th January 2006
Old 18th January 2006
  #9
Lives for gear
 
AlexLakis's Avatar
 

The 1176 is great. For all types of stuff. I've also been liking my new RNLAs (Thanks, Fletcher!) Been using them on drums mostly. My next limiter investment will most likely be an Alan Smart C2, although that'll be quite some time from now.

I use an RME ADI-8DS for conversion. I like it a lot, it does clean well, and it takes slamming quite nicely. I've actually been clipping it a bit coming back in from my limiters lately (mostly after drum squashing), and it's been sounding very ballsy. Call me crazy.
#10
18th January 2006
Old 18th January 2006
  #10
Gear Head
 

I own an aphex dominator II and in comparision with finalizer 96k it DOES deliver that analog sweetnes you would expect... So depends on the material I process I sometimes use one and sometimes the other. And in some cases even both...
Rep
Thread Starter
#11
19th January 2006
Old 19th January 2006
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Rep's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by balkanboy
I own an aphex dominator II and in comparision with finalizer 96k it DOES deliver that analog sweetnes you would expect... So depends on the material I process I sometimes use one and sometimes the other. And in some cases even both...
So is it really a big sonic benefit for you with the Analog limiter ,
that makes it worth the Digital DA/AD degradation hit. ?
Rep
Thread Starter
#12
19th January 2006
Old 19th January 2006
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Rep's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexLakis
I've actually been clipping it a bit coming back in from my limiters lately (mostly after drum squashing), and it's been sounding very ballsy. Call me crazy.
I have seen with the HEDD , just clipping it a bit on a good converter like that ,
can get a good limit without coloring the bottom.
GPl
#13
19th January 2006
Old 19th January 2006
  #13
GPl
Lives for gear
 
GPl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexLakis
The 1176 is great. For all types of stuff. I've also been liking my new RNLAs (Thanks, Fletcher!) Been using them on drums mostly. My next limiter investment will most likely be an Alan Smart C2, although that'll be quite some time from now.

I use an RME ADI-8DS for conversion. I like it a lot, it does clean well, and it takes slamming quite nicely. I've actually been clipping it a bit coming back in from my limiters lately (mostly after drum squashing), and it's been sounding very ballsy. Call me crazy.
You crazy guy you
#14
19th January 2006
Old 19th January 2006
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Darius van H's Avatar
 

so many limiters, so little time!

I tend to look at it like this: there are so many limiters available....software, hardware, analog, digital, clipping....they all work differently, sound different, grab the transients differently, work over different knees etc.......some will preserve better transient punch but will distort quicker, others like go louder without distortion but will soften the punch or the lowend or whatever.

So armed with this knowledge one can choose the right limiter for each situation, sometimes combining 2 or more, each doing a little.
#15
19th January 2006
Old 19th January 2006
  #15
Gear Head
 

Quote:
so many limiters, so little time!

I tend to look at it like this: there are so many limiters available....software, hardware, analog, digital, clipping....they all work differently, sound different, grab the transients differently, work over different knees etc.......some will preserve better transient punch but will distort quicker, others like go louder without distortion but will soften the punch or the lowend or whatever.

So armed with this knowledge one can choose the right limiter for each situation, sometimes combining 2 or more, each doing a little.
Exactly my point!
I don't mind for the extra D/A at all. If I can't hear it and it sounds right - who cares!
And I sometimes convert from 24 bit - to 16 again. Never mind. I pick the one I want to use regardles of the format. The only thing that matters is the sound I wish to acieve. Aphex dominator IS a nice limiter. I have showned one of my masters to the professional mastering engineer who had all the sweet babys outbord and plugins ( 1176, Disstresors,Amek,SL 160, isa 430,...) and we compared it with his master on the same material. And he couldn't acieve more than 0.5db difference and all he said was "ok.,...it is ok...". All I used was a Dominator. It's not perfect, you can't use it everytime, It is somehow slow on some materials but it defenitly sounds sweet when limiting up to 2.5 db on right material...
Rep
Thread Starter
#16
19th January 2006
Old 19th January 2006
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Rep's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius van H
so many limiters, so little time!

I tend to look at it like this: there are so many limiters available....software, hardware, analog, digital, clipping....they all work differently, sound different, grab the transients differently, work over different knees etc.......some will preserve better transient punch but will distort quicker, others like go louder without distortion but will soften the punch or the lowend or whatever.

So armed with this knowledge one can choose the right limiter for each situation, sometimes combining 2 or more, each doing a little.


Your so right ,
Many different ways to approach the issue,
...Some Not better Or Worse... Just different.


.
#17
20th January 2006
Old 20th January 2006
  #17
Lives for gear
 
opentune's Avatar
 

OK guys, i just got back from the studio. Due to a lack of time we didn´t get
into checking the Dominator. I´ll do that next time.

We were doing a comparison between the PT mix engine (HD2 system)
and a good old Tascam M600.
I totally agree with the people who say that an
extra conversion step is cool if you can get your mix on a higher level!

We listened to a 12 channels drumkit recorded in a good sounding room.
The difference between the "direct signals" wasn´t that big... the PT
engine was lacking a little quality in the high freq range. But the room
sound was a huge difference. While the PT engine made the room sound
nearly mono, the Tascam M600 mix was huge. The room just opened up
and everything sounded ...uhm... stereo/with natural dimension.

Well, sorry for going a little off topic. But i think it´s worth mentioning that
the extra DA/AD conversion step maybe a chance to involve equipment/
treatment that can improve your mix. Simple as that.

I´ll search for a "summing thread" now...
#18
20th January 2006
Old 20th January 2006
  #18
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
 

Anybody try that new Pendulum peak limiter they had at AES yet ?
#19
20th January 2006
Old 20th January 2006
  #19
Pragmatic Snob
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rep
One thread , that was looping High end converters,
showed that there is noticible small amount of loss after DA/AD

i know i'll catch flack for this, but IMHO apogee doesn't make the grade for hi-end conversion. lavry, weiss, mytek... those i trust. apogee leaves a distinct hoofprint.

speaking of trust, i didn't trust that thread at all, the files weren't the same level and i have no idea what the methodology was. and there were people on there claiming that their emm and lavry's could do multiple loopbacks with no audible degradation, but they didn't do a loopback with the source file so who knows?

my mind is still open on this issue until i get more hands-on data, and in the meantime i'll continue to do whatever is needed to get my signal into outboard analog kit!


gregoire
del ubik
#20
20th January 2006
Old 20th January 2006
  #20
I bought a "slightly modified"** Aphex Dominator II for use with the usual suspects... The metal guys, the rappers - Those looking for sheer volume without completely crapping out the sound.

Once I got the thing, I find myself using it quite often as the last piece in the chain... I think I'm going to have it modded a little more - Bypass all the EQ circuitry, clean up what can be - But I'm awfully impressed with how well it functions as long as it isn't abused.

** I'm not sure what they meant by that. I'm a second owner, and the unit was brokered. All I can tell you is that the thing is quiet - well beyond what the manual claims - which I wasn't expecting in the first place, but was thrilled with after I plugged it in.
#21
20th January 2006
Old 20th January 2006
  #21
Lives for gear
 
bjornson's Avatar
 

anybody know if there's a substantial difference between the 19" rack dominator and the 9000 rack model?
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
sasha222 / Low End Theory
0
macca / So much gear, so little time!
8
cdog / Gearslutz Secondhand Gear Classifieds
35
underworld / High end
1

Forum Jump
 
Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.