PMC TB2+s which subwoofer?

[elan]

Hello

I have these wonderful monitors :P I'm liking them everyday more :D
Well, I also have problems with the room, not because of the monitor, I tried many combinations, other monitors, other placements, I've treated as much as I could

Still I have a sort of low shelf cut under 100/200 hz so I would like to get a sub to have more lows

I like the PMC, so I wouldn't touch them with HPF, I prefer to LPF the subwoofer

So, I'm looking for a subwoofer with nice lows, fast transient response, possibly sealed an cheap

I can't afford the PMC sub, even thought probably is the best for these monitors, maybe in the future I'll get it, but for now I would get something cheaper.

I would also like to have full control over phase (not only 0/180 or so)

So I can place it accurately

If it's really cheap I could think about getting a pair

Thank you!

[therealbigd]

Solving a lack of bass in the room (due to bad acoustics) should not be overcome by simply adding more bass! If you aren't getting below 100/200Hz (that's quite a big band) something needs fixing in the room, I have the smaller DB1s and they go low without a sub. Either that or there's a problem with the speakers.

Adding more bass with a sub would be no more effective than simply buying an EQ and turning up the bottom end.

[Llitsor]

I do find these monitors very picky about their surroundings and placement. It seems to make a bigger difference than it would with most other monitors, in my experience.. Still, they are supposedly flat down to 40hz, so if it's not there, then your room is eating it up somehow. I expect it's best to look into that further, than pile in with the subs.
And if I was going to add subs to mine, I think i'd have to scrimp for the PMC one. Anything else could easily be a big pain in the ass to get set up and matched correctly, if possible at all? It would be a shame to spoil the TB2's with a 3rd rate sub..

[elan]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

Solving a lack of bass in the room (due to bad acoustics) should not be overcome by simply adding more bass! If you aren't getting below 100/200Hz (that's quite a big band) something needs fixing in the room, I have the smaller DB1s and they go low without a sub. Either that or there's a problem with the speakers.

Adding more bass with a sub would be no more effective than simply buying an EQ and turning up the bottom end.

1) I've not said I got nothing under 200, just lowered down of some db, like 4/6 db, actually it goes to 30 hz.

2) The sub will be in another place, not where the speakers are, so probably the bass will came out if I find the right position and the right phase for that position

3) If I use an EQ I will reduce the amp headroom, if I just rise the level with a SUB is not nearly the same as using an EQ

[elan]

Originally Posted by Llitsor

I do find these monitors very picky about their surroundings and placement. It seems to make a bigger difference than it would with most other monitors, in my experience.. Still, they are supposedly flat down to 40hz, so if it's not there, then your room is eating it up somehow. I expect it's best to look into that further, than pile in with the subs.
And if I was going to add subs to mine, I think i'd have to scrimp for the PMC one. Anything else could easily be a big pain in the ass to get set up and matched correctly, if possible at all? It would be a shame to spoil the TB2's with a 3rd rate sub..

it seems not, in my experience, they work better than Dynaudio BM5a in my room and a little better than krk vxt6

just, as pmc suggest, you should listen off axis (because of the highs rise)

so, some suggestions about SUB models? I'm not shy

Thank you

[Surbitone]

Originally Posted by Llitsor

. Anything else could easily be a big pain in the ass to get set up and matched correctly, if possible at all?

It's possible, and very common. A good sub from another company, might actually integrate better - If it was a choice between a tle1s and high end servo controlled sub, I'd more than likely go for the latter, providing the room was up to scratch.

[elan]

honestly I would go with the pmc sub because it uses the same transmission line concept and I really like the tight lows that system delivers

but it costs a fortune..!

so I was thinking more about a sealed sub, cheap

unfortunately in my country seems no one uses subwoofers because I can't find anything in the used market... :-/ I was thinking about something easily "re-sellable" so when I got the money for the PMC I sell it :-P

[dubrichie]

i use the TB2 / TLE-1 combination.

it rocks, save up for the PMC.

of course you have to spend the time to set up the sub properly in the room, playing tones, pink noise, etc.

but as others have suggested, if you have serious problems with LF in your room you should try to fix that before adding a sub.

acoustics is science. figure out what the problem is and fix it with a tuned trap like a Helmholtz resonator.

get the finger out, and the calculator and the measuring tape and the room mode modelling software and sort it out. THEN add the sub and it'll sound great.

[elan]

up?

[Xen Ochren]

Yeah I'm with you Elan. There are so many threads here of people looking for a sub to match their TB2's, im in the same situation, but most of the replies are "go sort out your acoustics"

I feel a bit frustrated as this is bleedingly obvious so some. BUT we still want a sub! I have no idea about sub manufacturers, I have never owned a sub before, and they are the kind of thing you can't really A/B in a store because of you guessed it- acoustics.

we really need some opinions and recommendations from people who have successfully matched TB2's with a sub. Or some warnings from people who have had bad matches.

YES we will/already have fixed the acoustics! the issue here is the $4000 tag on the TLE1~!! I will never afford that!!!

[Tube World]

Question: do you have at least 4 bass traps in your room? If the answer is no, get some GIK or Bass Traps and put them in your corners and then see if you see need a sub. If your answer is yes, I would get a PMC sub. They have one that is intended to be used tih the TB2's. which are amazing monitors. I have them in my studio and just love them. I did not find with having proper acoustic treatment in my studio that I needed a sub, but hey thats my room, and the treatment I have. I am aware that every room is different.

[elan]

Originally Posted by Xen Ochren

Yeah I'm with you Elan. There are so many threads here of people looking for a sub to match their TB2's, im in the same situation, but most of the replies are "go sort out your acoustics"

I feel a bit frustrated as this is bleedingly obvious so some. BUT we still want a sub! I have no idea about sub manufacturers, I have never owned a sub before, and they are the kind of thing you can't really A/B in a store because of you guessed it- acoustics.

we really need some opinions and recommendations from people who have successfully matched TB2's with a sub. Or some warnings from people who have had bad matches.

YES we will/already have fixed the acoustics! the issue here is the $4000 tag on the TLE1~!! I will never afford that!!!

Thanks Xen, I'm still using the PMC without SUB, but I have another pair of speakers I like a lot (even thought they are not as hi end as pmc) KRK VXT6 and I'm using them with a SUB (v12)

Guys.. I have the flattest lows I've ever had

Flat, Tight, zero boomy

Originally Posted by Tube World

Question: do you have at least 4 bass traps in your room? If the answer is no, get some GIK or Bass Traps and put them in your corners and then see if you see need a sub.

Guys like you really can't resist to type that kind of things

Also what if the Bass Trap in the corners really aren't what the room needs?
They can also screw your lows, you always have to check by ears and by measurements

I say that because many people talk about predefined solutions or room kits... which really can be what you need or exactly NOT.

I've built all the absorption for my room, custom made, what the room requires.. considering it unperfections

Because every room is different and, specially if you are in an apartment, you have to do many compromises, all that makes the room totally unpredictable, so placing traps in the corners as traps sellers says may or may not be what it is needed and probably, statistically speaking, are more the times that are not what is needed then the times they are

To solve a problem in my room you should place a trap in a place of the room, which is not a corner, nor a wall, it is near the middle of the room but it is not the middle, I should put a trap just there... but I don't otherwise I cannot walk in the room...

I said that just to explain how impredictable is acoustic in un not perfect room with compromises to do

I know all the things you wrote as I think even my mom knows... this mantra has been spread everywhere in GS and in the world... in my country SUB woofer have no used market because of this bullshit

A Subwoofer is a speaker like all the others, it need to be treated carefully because it is the third and it has to go accordingly with the other, but we are mainly talking about placement, phase and bass traps... bass traps and acoustic that you should already have tuned before adding the SUB

Nothing to be scared about

But it works great and unless you have a big room with big monitors that reproduces deep lows with a lot of headroom... (three things no one I know owns) and you want to hear lows, sub lows, you need a SUB

Just like that

Plus if you can't get better results in the lows then the ones you got with a pair of speaker, could also be that in the position where the 2 speakers are placed doesn't deliver lows under a certain point, and placing a SUB in another position can give you what you were looking for

Also it can flatten the lows, just you have to tweak it without being scared about tweaking the LPF, the phase, the HPF of the speakers or the crossover

It is that easy, just requires time and lack of fears, the fears everyone has spreaded in this forum and all over the world, about subwoofer

No fear, just ears

[lucabasano]

When I've got Pmc tb years ago,I've used:

Mirage bps150i,single,sound great,good integration with tb,not so precise,but U've got satisfaction,good for mixing.
Bipolar design,easier to position,great value used,more hifi oriented(due to piano finish)

Velodyne Minivee,both single and in pair,greats unit for a small room(4x4,5 mt),good integration,a pleasure to work with,U can't push too much,if so,higher model>more money.

Hsu Stf-1,pair,does not work in my room,not glued with the top,not good definition,in my room down firing subs've never worked great,not a Hsu fault,even if they're the entry level model sound fine.The new higher Hsu sound great,but more money.

Rel,don't remember the model,middle range(not the X0X serie none the B1),not good,for the same reason above(my room),even if as for the Hsu,lower quality for me vs the velodyne

Pmc Tle1s,perfect,even if more difficult to find the perfect place,in my room was better a single unit than a pair.

It's really room dependent,if U're gonna stay with tb,take a little time,efforts and money to try a couple solutions.

luca

[elan]

Originally Posted by lucabasano

When I've got Pmc tb years ago,I've used:

Mirage bps150i,single,sound great,good integration with tb,not so precise,but U've got satisfaction,good for mixing.
Bipolar design,easier to position,great value used,more hifi oriented(due to piano finish)

Velodyne Minivee,both single and in pair,greats unit for a small room(4x4,5 mt),good integration,a pleasure to work with,U can't push too much,if so,higher model>more money.

Hsu Stf-1,pair,does not work in my room,not glued with the top,not good definition,in my room down firing subs've never worked great,not a Hsu fault,even if they're the entry level model sound fine.The new higher Hsu sound great,but more money.

Rel,don't remember the model,middle range(not the X0X serie none the B1),not good,for the same reason above(my room),even if as for the Hsu,lower quality for me vs the velodyne

Pmc Tle1s,perfect,even if more difficult to find the perfect place,in my room was better a single unit than a pair.

It's really room dependent,if U're gonna stay with tb,take a little time,efforts and money to try a couple solutions.

luca

Hi Luca, I think you are the one I was buying the TLE1s from :D

I kept the money for it then I choose to not buy it. TB2 are great speakers, they just need too much care for sounding really good.

I think I would have modded my Adcom or got a Bryston to have more headroom in the lows, or probably a McIntosh considering I like that kind of sound, specially to smooth the highs in the TB2 that are really prominent.. sometimes, and had to buy the TLE1s

So in the end I would have spent at least 2k euros, probably more, without having enough space to find the perfect spot in the room..

So now I'm considering to sell the TB2+, just because I found a great balance (for mixing) with KRK vxt6 + v12

But thanks for the infos, I remember you were really a nice person

[bassman]

Tb2s here with the old big 15" tannoy sub. Really puts some energy down there. With any pmcs you need a sub that goes low, as in close to 20hz as you can get since the tbs alone get so low already, YMMV of course. No little 8 or 10 is gonna do. New ts12 might be a good start.

Mine has 300 watts pumping it good and tight. It's becomes a truly full range system that also gets very loud for tracking. I do hpf the tbs a bit to get more headroom out of the system.

Ashley

[TL2]

I have the TB2SAii's running with a Focal Sub 6 and the integration is beautiful. Granted, it took a few hours of running warble tones and careful measurements but I got them to sound like one giant cohesive speaker matching very closely my soffit mounted mains (Westlake BBSM12's). I was originally gonna sell the Focal Sub 6 as I wasn't sure they'd work with the PMC's (sold my Solo 6's and had the Sub leftover). I was wrong. They sound great together!

[Spec]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

Solving a lack of bass in the room (due to bad acoustics) should not be overcome by simply adding more bass!

Adding more bass with a sub would be no more effective than simply buying an EQ and turning up the bottom end.

v.good advice imho

[TL2]

I don't agree with the notion that turning up the bass with EQ is the same as adding a sub. A sub is another point source for sound and its placement is crucial in how it interacts with the rest of the room and speakers. So depending on where it is, it's another source of support or cancellation - for better or worse. I do, however, agree that adding a sub to an improperly designed space is a bad idea. Hell, adding any speaker to a bad space is a bad idea! But with that said, if your room is properly trapped and treated, adding a sub is really the only way to get the extra octaves with the impact you crave.

[elan]

Originally Posted by TL2

I don't agree with the notion that turning up the bass with EQ is the same as adding a sub.

that is really the worst thing someone can do... unless you have an amp with A LOT of power and you use it at low volume (read it headroom) and two speakers that can support all that power

Otherwise you'll lose transient response and you'll get distortion both from the amp and the speaker

I've tried eqing the pmc and they sounded really worse then without eq

I think the woofer in the pmc hasn't that much headroom.. in the lows

[noodle650]

we have the pmc tb2s + with a matrix str 300 amp. havnt even thought about needing a sub. more than enough lows off them. and our room is treated. placement is the key with them. was about to send them back until we started moving them around and experimenting with on and off axis listening. if you wanted propper chest thump sub then go for the Ib2's or the mb2's.....dont add a sub unless its the pmc sub.

[noodle650]

Originally Posted by elan

that is really the worst thing someone can do... unless you have an amp with A LOT of power and you use it at low volume (read it headroom) and two speakers that can support all that power

Otherwise you'll lose transient response and you'll get distortion both from the amp and the speaker

I've tried eqing the pmc and they sounded really worse then without eq

I think the woofer in the pmc hasn't that much headroom.. in the lows

im sorry but i totally disagree with you. they have very high headroom for such small monitors.

[noodle650]

and you shouldnt have to monitor or mix so loud in the first place!!

[James Lehmann]

I have PMC TB2+ and for a time I used them with a (loaned) PMC XB-1P sub-woofer, which translated into an awesome full-range system on which I completed well-balanced mixes. If you can find that (discontinued) sub anywhere I'd recommend it - I was surely very unhappy when the time came to give mine back and regret not buying it when I could.

I agree with other posters here that TB2's also require careful placement in a (preferably treated) room, a very good amplifier, good cables and a pair of good quality stands to really sing. With all this in place the bass response and overall performance of the TB2s is terrifyingly good, even without a sub; however, it all adds up to additional expenses far beyond the initial cost of the pair of monitors!

Whether you want to spend perhaps double again on 'accessorising' your TB2s to get them to sound like sonic nirvaneh then becomes a question of pride or foolishness, when the total cost of doing this takes them into a whole new price bracket of excellent monitoring systems that are perhaps less fussy with room placement and can cover those deep sub-bass notes at the drop of a hat (BlueSky, K&H, Focal etc). I must be doubly mad as I have both!

[elan]

Originally Posted by noodle650

im sorry but i totally disagree with you. they have very high headroom for such small monitors.

Look.. I had a pair of TB2+ and a pair of KRK VXT6 with a V12

Even the VXT6 have more headroom, but that's because they reproduce less lows (less extension, actually more quantity)

But the V12 has infinite more headroom, I agree one is 12" the other 6.5" and they both go down to 30hz

But, even thought the KRK is a sort of prosumer market... well you have a clear idea of headroom..

And I was saying that if you plan to eq them, you need to have a amp with a lot of headroom and a speaker that can support that power and that have the headroom to support the EQ you are applying...

I think the TB2 have not that headroom.. everytime I tried eqing them.. the wonderful transient response of these speaker was gone

6.5 is really too small for that kind of thing, any 6.5, specially a 6.5 that goes to 30hz