MS drum overheads

[turk sanchez]

Any of you guys do ms for your overheads? I have not used MS in a long time and was thinking about trying it again on drums. I think I would dig front of kit ms with ribbons!

[gko]

Originally Posted by waffle waitress

I think I would dig front of kit ms with ribbons!

I do! With a Bayer M130 & M160.

Groeten Gertjan

[tvanveen]

I did MS about a month ago after seeing this article -

http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2005/d.../content4.html

I hadn't understood how to do it until then. Hitting the phase button is like waving a magic wand!

Anyway, I'm using a C-48 and AT-4051. I didn't like my R84 for this, maybe because the back side has a slightly different sound.

tv

[Slaytex]

I just started tracking my drums with 4 mics in a big ass open room. I have a beta 52 on kick, 57 on snare and a AT4047/4050 in front of the kit in M/S. I'm also using an API 3124 and the shit sounds killer. Definetly not clean, it's more like modern Zepplin, atleast in my application. thumbsup
I'm trying to save up and get a R121 for this & GTR use later.
Have fun with it.

[wilcofan]

I have a Beyer M-130 on order to go with my M-160 but I did a session with a B&O ribbon as side with the M-160 a few weeks ago. It was exactly what I'm looking for lately.

I make rock music and the ribbons just seem to sit with almost no condenser top end mixed in.

I used to find, when using condenser OH and close, I was always turning down the hi-hat to fit the kick/snare but then complaining it was too quiet to groove to. It was always touchy. Now the hi-hat seems to be more pronounced but sits at the same time.

The thickness in the snare is good too. I used to spend a lot of time trying to find the beef before I started using ribbons.

MS really works well in a project studio too. If your room isn't spectacular it can tighten up the field and focus on the drums with a cardioid on Mid. This isn't ribbon dependent of course.

The M-160 hypercardioid does this as a ribbon and I don't think any others are cardioid. We A-B'd the M-160 as Mid as well as the B&O as Mid and the B&O just sounded too roomy. The B&O was figure-8 both Mid and Side (stereo BM5).

The M-160 is a little darker and not as open as Royer's or B&O ribbons (and most others I'd guess) but works for rock really well. Maybe not as pleasing on more open music like jazz or acoustic.

[TanTan]

i love to do XY overhead miking and in the mix i'm using two custom pultecs linked on MS mode to get a wider stereo image i like MS for room miking

[fifthcircle]

Do it all the time- I use an SF-24 in front of the kit. Sounds great.

When talking overhead in the traditional sense, using M-S can work well as it makes the dependence on a snare mic far less... I like a hyper cardiod mic as my center when I do that, but there are some single point M-S mics that work quite well (like the Shure VP-88).

BTW, Examples 3 and 8 on my website were both done with an M-S pair in front of the kit (they are both jazz). Ex 3 was a VP-88 and Ex 8 was an AKG 426

--Ben

[picksail]

E47 for the mid and an R84 for the sides.

[cdog]

I use a pair of Rode K2s as room mics in M/S and KM184s as overheads in X/Y, plus sometimes a distant mono mic (KSM32) in the hallway or stairway outside the studio (leaving the door cracked) for a big natural reverb.

The soundstage is huge but if you're not careful with this setup in the mix the cymbals can rip your head off!

[Steved]

Easy to understand placement of M/S mic-ing in front of the kit...

But how do you guys position the mics when using M/S mic-ing for overheads? I mean, in an X/Y, or spaced pair, the mics are facing down over the kit. Is the mid mic facing down when using M/S mic-ing for overheads?

[glide 1]

But how do you guys position the mics when using M/S mic-ing for overheads? I mean, in an X/Y, or spaced pair, the mics are facing down over the kit. Is the mid mic facing down when using M/S mic-ing for overheads?

....i'de like to know this aswell. I've heard of ribbons positioned above and slightly behind the drummer but not sure how to position the mics exactly.

[7rojo7]

Originally Posted by glide 1

....i'de like to know this aswell. I've heard of ribbons positioned above and slightly behind the drummer but not sure how to position the mics exactly.

M-S is a joke. doesn't sound real, if that's what you want.
The imaging is synthetic.
If you want that, it's fine.
For drums, if you have a "nice" small room M-S could work, otherwise it's for capturing SFX or other widgets that need high mono capatibility, (specially with moving mics)
In stereo you have the mid and +L, -R signals. The L and R compnents cancel in mono and the sound becomes terribly mono, worse yet is the 90 and 270 relation of the Bidirectional element in stereo that holds little content except for "ambience".
There are other configurations which yield better results...

[wilcofan]

Originally Posted by 7rojo7

The L and R compnents cancel in mono and the sound becomes terribly mono...

As opposed to "moderately mono" or "exasperatingly mono"?

It's mono!

Most complain when the ambience takes over in mono, not the source.

As for "synthetic image", I've stood in front of 100 drum kits and the sound through the speakers never sounded exactly the same, no matter how many configurations I've been across with the OH.

Interesting post though, never met a M/S hater before!

[7rojo7]

I love mono, I don't hate m-s I just think it's uses are limited.
If you record in M-S your mono source should be perfect.
I can't think of a cardiod, hyper, super or whatever that's going to do it alone.

[turk sanchez]

hey wilcofan...i know what you mean about ribbons helping fatten the snare. I have been using 3 overheads...a spaced pair of neumanns (u87s or km184's) closer to the cymbals and a ribbon (coles) right over the head / slightly behind the drummer. I pan the neumanns hard and the coles up the middle gives it a thick chesty sound...more impact...all thru api

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by 7rojo7

M-S is a joke. doesn't sound real, if that's what you want.
The imaging is synthetic.

i agree with wilcofan... putting mics in front of a kit never sounds like the kit itself. if you're describing the imaging as compared to other techniques, then i'd have to say i disagree.

certain techniques work in certain applications. there are times when i'd much rather use an ORTF config than m/s. other times, it's the opposite.

the biggest advantage of m/s is mono compatibility. even though mono doesn't show up as often in the music world as it once did, a mono-compatible mix is one that is more apt to sound better in the car (drivers seat isn't quite the sweet spot) and on users' systems that don't have ideal speaker placement.

the "synthetic" imaging is actually identical to x/y once you matrix the signals. as an added bonus, you get to decide just how "wide" you want the stereo imaging.

in addition, using m/s means that your mid mic is getting the center of the soundfield completely on-axis, where frequency response is best. in any other near-coincident configuration, your center image is off axis on both mics. (45 degrees for x/y and NOS, more for ORTF). this isn't too much of an issue for, say, dpa mics, but talk off axis into all your mics, and see which ones still sound good!

it's for these reasons (on-axis center information, mono-compatibility, and ability to adjust the soundfield in the mix) that i often opt for a m/s setup when recording bands in a live environment.

Originally Posted by 7rojo7

There are other configurations which yield better results...

sometimes. other times it's just what the doctor ordered.

--jon

[Steved]

Seems like we're discussing the advantages and liabilities of M/S mic-ing in general. But the topic is "MS drum overheads".

The sound clip examples in the UA Webzine example above sound like front-of-the-kit mics to me... not overheads.

I've been doing drum tracks in of my studio for years, and I've experimented with every technique except M/S for overheads. I currently use a spaced pair of C414 XL-IIs mult-ed through outboard eq. The mix of the dry and eq'd tracks gives tons of eq and panning options and always sounds great solo-ed or mixed with the close and ambient room mics on the kit.

M/S overheads just doesn't seem like it would deliver a better result to me.

So... to the original poster's question...

1. Do you use M/S mic-ing for overheads? And if you do... how do you place the mics?

2. Have you tried it for overheads and decided you don't like it?

[tnelson494]

I don't own a figure 8 mic and was woundering if it would be possible to use 2 cardioid mic's in place for side info? I was gonna try it tonight on drums see what happens.

[Slaytex]

You kinda could, but your stereo image will suffer since it's not picking up much of the entire room. It's like being able to do it with a pair of twins. When using cardiod for your sides it's like having an ugly pair of twins. But with a figure 8 as your sides you get the full effect with the hot set of twins.

[tnelson494]

ya I figured it wouldn't be as good but something to try out. Not sure if I would like M/S for what I'm doing any how but I like to experment with my own stuff. Thanks for the thoughts Clayton.

[mltamisin]

I've never thought of doing M/S overhead. Only in front of the kit. I'm sure you could face the cardioid at the snare from overhead and place the side mic with one side of the figure eight catching the hats & the other side catching the ride. Shit, why not. Try it & let us know what you think. It may create more of a spread than placing the mics in front of the kit b/c now the sides are picking up something other than wall & room reflections.....it's picking up a hat on one side and a ride on the other. Of course, it may not. There's only one way to find out.
Good Luck - Matt

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by tnelson494

I don't own a figure 8 mic and was woundering if it would be possible to use 2 cardioid mic's in place for side info? I was gonna try it tonight on drums see what happens.

yes. you can. please let us know what your results are.

Originally Posted by Slaytex

You kinda could, but your stereo image will suffer since it's not picking up much of the entire room.

actually, with cardioids, you're picking up *more* of the room. remember that cardioids are 20 to 30 db down at the rear, and louder still @ 90 deg. a fig 8 has little to no sensivity 90 degrees off axis.

--jon

[cdog]

Originally Posted by 7rojo7

M-S is a joke. doesn't sound real, if that's what you want.
The imaging is synthetic...

I totally disagree. With some added low end EQ I have used my front of kit M/S mics as my ONLY drum sound, its a very natural and realistic sound.

This has also been the reaction from band members when I bring up the M/S room mics on top of the X/Y overheads and close mics. Its adds a ton of meat to the sound and I feel like I'm in the room with the drums, whereas without the M/S mics added in the sound is a more sterile, "studio clean" Hotel California type of sound (which can work really well with those clean acoustic guitar based arrangements).

I've always preferred spaced X/Y for overheads, the cymbal sounds locate a little better in the stereo image in my room this way.

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by cdog

I've always preferred spaced X/Y for overheads

what's spaced x/y?

--jon

[7rojo7]

A-B with cardioids?

[Slaytex]

Originally Posted by JonCraig

actually, with cardioids, you're picking up *more* of the room. remember that cardioids are 20 to 30 db down at the rear, and louder still @ 90 deg. a fig 8 has little to no sensivity 90 degrees off axis.

--jon

Thats true, but if you setup the mics 90 of axis like you normally would do for M/S, you would have 1 cardiod pointing directly at the kit and another straight up at the ceiling. It's not that it wouldn't work, but it definetly wouldn't sound like the results of using a figure 8. I guess it just depends on what kind of image your going for. I personally like the side mic not to hear much of the front of the kit, that way I get to capture different sound aspects of the kit as a whole.
Please correct me if I'm mistaken on anything.
Thanks.

[Matej]

All this M/S talk has really intrigued me. I'll do some testing this afternoon and if you guys want I can post some wavs/mp3s of the MS as overheads and front of the kit.

I'm not sure I like the sounds posted on the UAUDIO website to tell you the truth, I hope I can come up with better sounds. You'll have to show a bit of patience for my skippy drumming though .

Talk to you soon...

Matej

[Slaytex]

That will be cool. Try it with the kik & snr miced along with it. I'm always interested in hearing new ways of doing things. I usually have to find that magic distance away from the kit where the cymbals are balanced with everything else level wise.
Thanks.

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by Slaytex

Thats true, but if you setup the mics 90 of axis like you normally would do for M/S, you would have 1 cardiod pointing directly at the kit and another straight up at the ceiling.

no... you'd have one pointed at the snare, one towards the left wall, another towards the right wall.

Originally Posted by Slaytex

It's not that it wouldn't work, but it definetly wouldn't sound like the results of using a figure 8.

oh, i agree! but it would be close enough for someone to experiment with.

--jon

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by cdog

I've always preferred spaced X/Y for overheads

Originally Posted by JonCraig

what's spaced x/y?

Originally Posted by 7rojo7

A-B with cardioids?

nope... that's just simple a b (you can use any mics for ab)

--jon