"Corner loading" (like Robert Johnson) to achieve compression effect?

[chessparov]

VERY interesting interview with Ry Cooder posted today in this forum (thanks Teddy Ray).

Anyway...

Has anyone here experimented either playing, or recording another
singer/guitarist, where they perform close towards the corner of the room to
create a more compressed midrange kind of sound?

Thanks,
Chris

[Lance Lawson]

I'm not sure how much of Robert Johnson's recorded sound was intentional or accidental. He was after all being recorded first in a hotel room then later in a warehouse and not in a proper studio. Listening to the records its obvious that it was a very live spaces and likely not easy to record in. While Don Law did indeed record Robert while he was facing/playing into a corner according to Law it was not for any acoustic value. Law said that Robert was very shy and nervous and was most comfortable keeping his back to Law and his recording equipment. The very ambient sound of many of Johnson's recordings seems to be room echo from the openness of the central spaces of the room and especially the warehouse sessions.

That said if there was a known sonic benefit in the Law/Johnson recording setup then its a happy coincidence since I doubt Robert would have faced forward from the corner. In any event it worked but I believe the mic had a lot to do with it. I've tried it using modern mics and in my well treated home studio and it was no better and no worse than any other method. But again I think a live sounding room is part of the key to corner loading.

[chessparov]

Thanks Lance for the informative post.

With all due respect, however, am firmly convinced (as Ry Cooder is)
this effect WAS intentional.

Chris

[Lance Lawson]

Its of course possible. One way to determine would be to find out whether the technique was in some sort of general use back then. Don Law does account for the corner setup as a means to work around Johnson's shyness. Yet the Johnson recordings are perhaps the best of their kind. Also another good avenue to follow is whether the technique shows up in any formal recording texts.

[chessparov]

Excellent points. Wonder if sometimes home recordists could turn the
"lemon into lemonade", by using this effect in untreated rooms.

Chris

[okcrounders]

Originally Posted by Lance Lawson

I'm not sure how much of Robert Johnson's recorded sound was intentional or accidental. He was after all being recorded first in a hotel room then later in a warehouse and not in a proper studio. Listening to the records its obvious that it was a very live spaces and likely not easy to record in. While Don Law did indeed record Robert while he was facing/playing into a corner according to Law it was not for any acoustic value. Law said that Robert was very shy and nervous and was most comfortable keeping his back to Law and his recording equipment. The very ambient sound of many of Johnson's recordings seems to be room echo from the openness of the central spaces of the room and especially the warehouse sessions.

That said if there was a known sonic benefit in the Law/Johnson recording setup then its a happy coincidence since I doubt Robert would have faced forward from the corner. In any event it worked but I believe the mic had a lot to do with it. I've tried it using modern mics and in my well treated home studio and it was no better and no worse than any other method. But again I think a live sounding room is part of the key to corner loading.

It's quite a nice change of pace to see some conversations about Robert Johnson around here as opposed to the standard ejaculatory/flagellatory exchanges over piece of gear X, Nickelback recording techniques, CLA/TLA workflow-mixing practices, and the ever popular "How did Phil Collins get the drumsound on 'In the Air Tonight'?" thread.

[ray_subsonic]

Chris. I read that same interview. Ry Cooder's theory seemed to be based on the experience of recreating the scenario of playing guitar and singing in the corner of an old room with plaster walls, much like the hotels in those parts of The South where Johnson would have recorded.

In this case "Corner Loading" could also be called "comb filtering". He's saying that sitting in the corner reinforced the midrangeof the guitar and the voice into the mic, which makes sense.

Originally Posted by chessparov

Excellent points. Wonder if sometimes home recordists could turn the "lemon into lemonade", by using this effect in untreated rooms. Chris

Definitely a great idea to experiment with. Who knows where it might lead? ;-)

Lance. Ry Cooder had developed some ideas which ran counter to the conventional myths about Johnson. It's a great interview and worth reading. http://jasobrecht.com/ry-cooder-–-...es-and-gospel/

Cheers RAy

[Johnny Favorite]

Can we name this technique the "Blair Witch"? Please?

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Lance Lawson

Don Law does account for the corner setup as a means to work around Johnson's shyness.

I think Cooder's point was that there's no way Robert Johnson was shy. And he sure does sound confident as hell I'd say. So it seems almost certain that the corner loading was done for sonical reasons.

I don't want to sound like a smart-ass here but...don't y'all do this too? From the first time on that I tried to seriously record acoustic guitar I was always checking out different spots in my rooms. To be honest, I used to do this way more when I had only limited mics and gear because the difference was like night and day whereas using a different might prevent one from trying another room/corner. I'm currently going back to that approach and really try to find the best spot before even thinling about mics or preamps,etc

I think that acoustic guitar is pretty much always about 'loading the room', the reflections are a big part of the sound and I'm sure that most players will agree that palying decent acoustic guitar in a dead or bad sounding room is almost impossible.

[Washington]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

I think Cooder's point was that there's no way Robert Johnson was shy. And he sure does sound confident as hell I'd say. So it seems almost certain that the corner loading was done for sonical reasons.

I read it that way as well.

Besides, I'd mainly reckon he did it to better hear himself more than to affect the recorded signal itself... the equivalent of refining a headphone mix nowadays. Remember that audio recording was not something anybody, particularly poor and colored folks of the era, would have a substantial habit of - for all I remember, he only went through two sessions in his entire life. I doubt Mr. Johnson would have had a particular knowledge of "tips and tricks" to sound better in front of microphones. Though I truly hope not to imply any condescendence saying that.

There has been a recent flourish of new questions arrising about these recordings, as a theory surfaced implying that they would have been notably sped up somewhere in the replication process (or before it). True or not, listening to the magnificent music of Robert Johnson at what some consider to be "proper" or "original" pitch and speed leads to a entirely different experience, and further questions any statement made over those mythical San-Antonio sessions. More on this here and here.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Washington

I doubt Mr. Johnson would have had a particular knowledge of "tips and tricks" to sound better in front of microphones.

Are you trying to imply that Johnson didn't fret over the preamp being used or pointing out the possible dangers of standing waves in that hotel room?

Originally Posted by Washington

There has been a recent flourish of new questions arrising about these recordings, as a theory surfaced implying that they would have been notably sped up somewhere in the replication process (or before it).

Yeah, I think I read that they will release it like that soon. Johnson's vocals always sounded very high to me so the speed-up theory seems to make much sense.

[Washington]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

Are you trying to imply that Johnson didn't fret over the preamp being used or pointing out the possible dangers of standing waves in that hotel room?

No, not at all, not one bit, not the least of course ! Robert was well known to insistly post on the board of the General Store and Hardware Appliances Slutz, in Kalamazoo, insistant manuscript notes asking "What's the best soon-to-come U47 clone under $1.80".

[judah]

Grab an acoustic guitar and put yourself in a corner facing it. Try play and sing and you'll be amazed. It's a very interesting sound. I never recorded myself like that but everytime I walk around the house with my guitar I end up in the corner of my living room and enjoy the sound of it.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Washington

I doubt Mr. Johnson would have had a particular knowledge of "tips and tricks" to sound better in front of microphones. Though I truly hope not to imply any condescendence saying that.

But considering that he played these session live just like he would play a house party or busking on the street, it might have been a simple matter of finding the best sounding spot. Placing yourself in front of the big glass window of the -yes- Kalamazoo General Store and Hardware Appliances sure resulted in a very different sound that playing on a street corner without close reverberating surfaces.

[sailcat]

It's pretty unlikely that Robert Johnson had recording technique in mind. It's far more likely that he was in the habit of playing facing a corner because he had discovered that he liked the sound there best. Maybe he chose to do that when being recorded because he knew it would sound best that way, as opposed to the sound he got playing live in almost any kind of room. He was no recordist, but he certainly got the concept of starting out with good playing and good sound. Musicians have always been concerned with getting the best sound under any circumstances. Robert would probably be one of those tone monsters today, and a proper gearslut.

[okcrounders]

Originally Posted by sailcat

It's pretty unlikely that Robert Johnson had recording technique in mind. It's far more likely that he was in the habit of playing facing a corner because he had discovered that he liked the sound there best. Maybe he chose to do that when being recorded because he knew it would sound best that way, as opposed to the sound he got playing live in almost any kind of room. He was no recordist, but he certainly got the concept of starting out with good playing and good sound. Musicians have always been concerned with getting the best sound under any circumstances. Robert would probably be one of those tone monsters today, and a proper gearslut.

I've read that he faced the corner not because he was shy or due to the sound, but because he was possessive of his technique. A contemporary of Johnson's, a guy named Johnny Shines, recalls trying to cop some licks from him and Johnson turning his back to him (Shines). This fits with Don Law's recollection of the San Antonio sessions (i.e. of Johnson being reluctant to share his technique with some other musicians present at the session).

[HudHudson]

That was a timely post about Robert Johnson; on Saturday I was approached by a potential client who wants to recreate the original 1936 recording in Room 414 of the Gunter Hotel in San Antonio. I know the recordings pretty well but never had any info on how the recording was done.

[Lance Lawson]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

I think Cooder's point was that there's no way Robert Johnson was shy. And he sure does sound confident as hell I'd say. So it seems almost certain that the corner loading was done for sonical reasons.

I don't want to sound like a smart-ass here but...don't y'all do this too? From the first time on that I tried to seriously record acoustic guitar I was always checking out different spots in my rooms. To be honest, I used to do this way more when I had only limited mics and gear because the difference was like night and day whereas using a different might prevent one from trying another room/corner. I'm currently going back to that approach and really try to find the best spot before even thinling about mics or preamps,etc

I think that acoustic guitar is pretty much always about 'loading the room', the reflections are a big part of the sound and I'm sure that most players will agree that palying decent acoustic guitar in a dead or bad sounding room is almost impossible.

Let's assume for a moment that Robert playing to the corner was done for sonic reasons. If that's true I'd say that the credit for it goes to Don Law and not Robert Johnson. I've read elsewhere where modern players credit Johnson for knowing just how to record himself to the greatest effect. However recording was still very much an "esorteric art" and recording rigs were manned by true audio engineers. It is highly doubtful that Johnson had ever encountered a recording rig before he himself was being recorded and its highly doubtful that he ever encountered one after the Dallas sessions.

As for shyness and confidence if Robert hadn't performed to a level worth recording than we wouldn't have any recordings of him at all. Also we don't know how many takes were done and how many runthroughs Robert did. He may have been a bundle of nerves for the first 2 hours and then caught fire and cranked out several winning takes in short order. Certainly by the second day he would have been acclimated to the process and less stressed. But he also may have found his footing via the comfort of playing into the corner as opposed to facing the direction of the people and technology recording him. Its also known that not all of his sessions were mega productive and at least one session only produced one useable take. It would help also to know the nature of the microphone they were recording with. Its generally thought that only one mic was used but was it omni or unidirectional? That much "room boom" indicates to me that it was an omnidirecitonal unit.

I read somewhere years ago that either John Hammond Sr. or Don Law said that at the time Robert was first approached to make some records that he had barely traveled out of his home county. Where its known Robert did travel a great deal it may have only been in the last couple of years of his life.

That said Ry Cooder is truly a blues master. Perhaps the blues master.

[Washington]

Originally Posted by HudHudson

That was a timely post about Robert Johnson; on Saturday I was approached by a potential client who wants to recreate the original 1936 recording in Room 414 of the Gunter Hotel in San Antonio. I know the recordings pretty well but never had any info on how the recording was done.

Room 414, uh ? Wasn't aware of the room number. I would have preferred it to be room 44, or 84, or even 57. But 414 ? Oh well.

[Lance Lawson]

Eric Clapton did a Robert Johnson tribute I saw on PBS. The last clips in the show are Clapton and acoustic guitar doing Robert Johnson in Room 414.

[chessparov]

Thanks again everyone for your interesting posts.

BTW are digital "plaster wall" plug-ins as good as those expensive vintage
414 plaster walls?

Carry on...

Chris

[The Pressman]

Originally Posted by chessparov

VERY interesting interview with Ry Cooder posted today in this forum (thanks Teddy Ray).

Anyway...

Has anyone here experimented either playing, or recording another
singer/guitarist, where they perform close towards the corner of the room to
create a more compressed midrange kind of sound?

Thanks,
Chris

Yeah, great link.

To answer your question, yes I have recorded vocals facing the corner of an untreated plaster room. It gave a quite nasty/nasal sound, but it was great for the hardcore/punk track we were working on. We've also tried with the singer, if you can imagine this, crouching down in the corning facing where 2 walls and the floor meet. (Luckily he was the singer in my band so didn't mind trying things like that ) Definitely usable in some situations if that's what your going for.

I've also done it with guitar amps, again to bring out a nasty midrange sound.

But I've never tried acoustic guitar for some reason.. Hmm..

[leaper]

Interesting article..
It's an approach well worth checking out.
Can be quite dramatic with contra basses.
Another thing to try with singer/guitarists is a reflective surface on studio floor.
Cymbals placed around players feet can work well.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Lance Lawson

Eric Clapton did a Robert Johnson tribute I saw on PBS. The last clips in the show are Clapton and acoustic guitar doing Robert Johnson in Room 414.

Yeah and its available on CD/DVD as 'Sessions for Robert J'. Stunning.

Amazon.com: Sessions For Robert J. (CD + DVD): Eric Clapton: Music

The strange thing is that Clapton did a Johnson tribute called 'Me and Mr. Johnson' which I (and many others) found very mediocre and it was not long after that that the second set with the DVD was released. Awesome band (Billy Preston!), great studio footage and Clapton talking in depth about Johnson and the impact that he had on him.

And then there's the footage where Clapton and Doyle Brabhall II record at the Gunther hotel. I can only highly recommed this set, it's totally worth the money!

[Unclenny]

I just bought Robert Johnson's guitar.

Seriously....a 1933 Kalamazoo is heading my way shortly. And I have a sufficiently crappy tracking room........

Stay tuned.