If I couldn't afford neve and Neumann, then what would be next best...???

[celebritymusic]

Hi

I have a Rode NTK mic, going into a Sebatron vmp-2000e pre.

I recently hired a Neumann U67 and a UA LA-610 to re-record some vocals for one of my songs.

The difference between the raw takes was remarkable - the takes using the hired gear were more clear, smooth, not 'bumpy' in tone like my gear. The tracks also seeemd to slot into the mix nicely even before applying an eq or effects.

Of course, now I feel I have to upgrade :-)

I cannot afford a Neumann, LA-610, or 1073 pre combo.

What's something in between price-wise that'll give me a much more even tone, that'll make my tracks fit well even without eq or effects, with the option of coloring things up if I want?

Here are some examples of my vocals - www.sonicbids.com/thechicgeeks - maybe you could offer an educated guess as to what mic/pre combo might suit me? I know it's usually a trial and error thing, but if you could give me a starting point so that I know which combo to hire next to try out?

Thanks!

Shaun

[warhead]

OK I'll play.

The Phoenix DRS-1 and a CAD M9 might be completely dangerous on tons of stuff. That Phoenix is one of the few preamps that just really stands out as something special, and the CAD M9 is one of those stellar mics no matter what the price and has vibe for days.

War

PS: By the way, good catchy tunes!

[Sqye]

Don't listen to warhead, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Just kidding, War.

Nice site. I used an Equitech 500 for years at a friend's studio in NY, and loved it. Great mic.

Hey, Shaun, have fun picking out mics and pres

[u b k]

Originally Posted by celebritymusic

I cannot afford a Neumann, LA-610, or 1073 pre combo.

fair enough... but what CAN you afford? budget is critical info in questions like this.

and don't be shy, we all started somewhere .


gregoire
del ubik

[djui5]

I'd look into either the soundelux (I haven't used these, just saying check them out, it might be worth it), or the AT line (I have used these and they sound good for the $$)

[maskedman72]

well i use a chandler ltd-1 with a tla-50 leveling amp and a at 4033. the 4033 isnt the best but i had a soundelux u-195 and i liked it.

you could also go mp1nv-distressor or dbx 160- mic of choice(sm7b?)

there are so many choices!

[bing81]

The Phoenix DRS-1 and a CAD M9 might be completely dangerous on tons of stuff. That Phoenix is one of the few preamps that just really stands out as something special.

I'd back that up DRS-wise.

As for Mics .. 195 (of course!) or get a couple of the mid-priced ADK's .. Hamburg (Nevish kind of) or Vienna (ADK/C12ish kind of).

[Bat Head Sound]

Originally Posted by u b i k

... but what CAN you afford? budget is critical info in questions like this.

Good point, anyone here can recommend a solution that will run you $5k. However, if you only have $3k to spend, then it's not much of a solution for you is it?

[The Swami]

I have never seen a bad post about the Microtech Geffell mt 71s it will run you about a grand and has the m7 capsule in it. I think it's great for the price and was recommended to me by my bud Jimmy Devito from retrophonics in FL.I've also heard great things about the dw fearn pre amps a single channel and the mic should run you about 3,000 .

[popmann]

I recently hired a Neumann U67 and a UA LA-610 to re-record some vocals for one of my songs.

First-let me assume from your post you loved this sound. If that's true...did you use the compressor in the LA610? To pull how much gain reduction?

The reason I ask...I think the mic and compressor have the most bearing on the vocal sound to my ear. Certainly better preamp...usually better. But, clean transformerless pres with a decent mic/compressor work fine.

So, if you were really just using the 67>610...you can get off cheap with a compromise (albeit, it IS still a compromise)...

...but, I think if you were using the LA comp to do much gain reduction, you're on the hook...the LA610 is the cheapest available version. I've had it here next to an La2a and La3a (both original)...and while the three do have their own sonic signature on the fundamental tone...the compression "character" seems very much the same--and I've not heard it elsewhere. Nice as a Distressor is--won't do THAT sound. Cl1b will...but, that's just as much $$, so...

[Marjan]

If you can't afford Neve, then you have Great River - they have a one ch. preamp, which is apparently what you're looking for. And one day, when you win the lottery and finally get the change to buy Neve, you'll realise that God carried you in His lap during all that time... and you won't ever want to sell the GR unit.
As for the mic, Studio Projects T3 is my advice. It costs less than your NTK and sounds three times better... you won't believe the sound of that mic.
This is my answer.

Now, if you need a mid-priced stereo pre-amp, I'd suggest:
Amek 9098 - clean and sort of nevish, sort of...
TLA Dual Pentode or C1 - smooth (the C1 a stero compressor with built-in pre-amp, so you may as well see/use it as a stereo pre-amp/compressor)
But I'm not shure you'd get better results with these on vocals then with your Sebatron vmp-2000e... never worked with it.

Next time tell us your budget...
Good luck...!

[Marjan]

Originally Posted by Marjan

Amek 9098
TLA Dual Pentode or C1

They're not Neves or Fearns, but you can still win Grammy's with them...

Ubik... thanks for your PM..! I'll reply soon...

[Teddy Gee]

I do not know the Sebatron very well personally but from what I have heard out of it and from general opinion on this and other forums, I don't think you are losing much in that category. It is a good pre.

Your NTK on the other hand.............I bought one a number of years ago and though I know there are those who feel differently I don't think this mic can run with any of the big dogs and definitely has lots of bumps (and worse IMO). For $1,000-$1,500 you could do Soundelux U195 or a Charter Oak SA538.......I have both and they are excellent and worth double the price in either case. I just got the Charter Oak and find it to be incredible on vocals and acoustic instrumentrs. There is also Perlman and Peluso in the same general price range.

Whether the compressor is a part of the sound you liked or not, I would look at your mic as the weak part of your vocal recording chain and start improving there. IMO mics make a far bigger difference than pres assuming that both are of good quality. You can worry about adding a nice opto compressor for your vocals later.

Stephen

[Jonathan Starr]

I agree with the last poster. Put your money towards a good mic, first. The Sebatron was my first good pre, and it's still one of my favorites. It's pretty versatile and is not "worse" but "different from" other great pres.

I went from a NTK to a Peluso 2247LE as my premier vocal mic, and with the Sebatron the first time I used it on a good vocalist I felt like I had slipped and slid down into his throat, everything was so big and clear and open in comparison. And I'm sure there are better mics around than the Peluso.

Have fun figuring it out. I for one am tempted by the Pearlman, though I just today received an early Korby FET "stubby" which on first blast sounds awesome good.

[robocop]

The difference between the raw takes was remarkable - the takes using the hired gear were more clear, smooth, not 'bumpy' in tone like my gear. The tracks also seeemd to slot into the mix nicely even before applying an eq or effects.

it was the 67 you loved.

the pre had little to do with it.

and the dude that asked you if you had the limiter in brought up a good point.

you should hire out the 67 again and try it with your pre and some compression, see how it feels before you get anything. if it does turn out that you dig the mic with your pre, you are kinda screwed anyways. there is not a good 67ish mic out there at all, so you will have to try to test different mics the same way.

[supaheef]

The NTK killed you.

While both Rode and Sebatron are fantastic examples of Australian engineering, I would guess the mic was the bigger detraction from a greta sound. I sold my NTK many moons ago, and don't wish for it back.

Right now I use (among other things) an AT4047 (Neumann clone) and SCA N72's (Neve clone). Sounds like a real record to me. Much cheaper than real thing, and it always puts a smile on my face. For example, I recorded some vocals through tis very chain last night, facing into a wardrobe full of clothes to keep traffic noise and reflections out. Replay this morning has me grinning from ear to ear. Of course, having a delictable sound source like me certainly helps!

sh.

[DirkB]

For about §2000 or a little above you should be able to get a high end mic+preamp.
For example U195 and GR MP1NV.
I would invest in a dual channel preamp with DI though for recording stereo sources.

Good luck,
Dirk

[mltamisin]

Look into Langevin's mic. It's got the capsule from a Manley Reference mic, which should sound great. It's not tube but it's affordable & should sound OK. Whether or not it's an upgrade from an NTK I'm not sure about. A U67 is a hard thing to compete with in the affordable category. For an affordable vocal pre try the Avalon vt737. People rag on it all the time but I think it's a cool piece. Also, try a new Neve Portico. It's around $1,600 but it's 2 channels. So that's actually $800/channel. It's also a phenominal sounding piece.

[mltamisin]

Ah, I see you said you cannot afford Neve. So Portico out of the question and $800 a channel too much money......hmmmm lets see....how about a Grace Designs single channel? Maybe a Sytek. FRM RNP. But at that price don't expect too much. You already have a Sebatron which will be comparable to the Grace or Sytek. Why don't you save the money on buying both and do an either or thing. Get a killer pre OR a killer mic. I say use the NTK with a Portico and be done with it until you have more money.

[Sqye]

Always hated Rodes, myself - nasty - JMO

But, to be fair, I haven't any of their mics in a while - like 4 or 5 years. Wasn't impressed at all, initially.

[gregl]

Sebatron is a nice preamp but I've heard more than one mention that the NTK does not work very well with these....

[Juanathan]

Hey all,

I had a very similar experience to the first poster. I finished recording my first CD a month or so ago. After all the tracks were recorded, I rented a U67 to see how much I could improve on some of the vocal tracks. The "fanciest" mics I've got are a Soundelux U195 and an AEA R84. I like both mic a lot. But for my voice most of the time it was (speaking for my anal inner voice here) a little too harsh and a little too muddy, respectively. I brought the U67 home, plugged it in, and it was money, money, money.. so to speak. Rather than laying a vocal track and saying (again that anal, inner voice) "not bad but, why not do another", I would be saying (and again this guy is anal) "jeez, do I even need to do another track?"

This is not to cast aspersions on those two mics. I use em happily all over. They just never got me all the way there vocally. So..... yes I want want a U67. Sadly, for me, this would involve cashing out a bit of the 401k. Obviously, I thought about it, but not gonna happen.

What other tube mics are out there that are modeled on the U67 that are cheaper in any regard than the $4000 minimum one of these buggers would cost?

I'm looking for personal recommendations rather than simply the marketing blurb that says theirs is just like a U67.

Gratitude,
Juanathan

[Midlandmorgan]

I still believe the Peluso 2247 is a superlative mic and excellent value...to me, mine is like the melding of an original 47 and an original 67...

If the need arose, I would buy another 2247 without a second thought...nothing nothing more than what you posted, this is a very strong contender...

[Sqye]

For male and female vocals, I'd say AM62 on ebay (or GT67 new - more expensive) and AT 4033. May not suit every need, but sure will give you a great bang for your buck, and should do beautifully for much of your demanding vocal recording. The 2 of them should cost you under a $1000, easily - and you'll be VERY happy.

Good luck.

[popmann]

What other tube mics are out there that are modeled on the U67 that are cheaper in any regard than the $4000 minimum one of these buggers would cost?

I think the AT 4060 is not terribly far removed, and is certainly cheaper. It may be a little less thick through the low mids and a little more foward in the upper mids, but...A good old p48 U87 is very much in the same ballpark. An Innertube87 is, as well(maybe a little brighter)...but, is getting up there with the 67. The Korby67 cap is wonderful...but, will cost you MORE than a old 67. It's mellower, too.

I had a post in High End a while back looking for 67 clones...(actually, I was specifically wanting to hear comparisons of the U99 and the Korby, which I had used.) $2500 for a U99 I might swing...$4500 for a Korby just isn't gonna happen. You can search for that, but bascially, there aren't a lot.

[meteor]

I had a Sebatron pre for a while. I've also had/have API, Chandler, GR, Trident... among others. The Sebatron has it's own very flexible sound(s) but it's not inferior to any of the other colored pres I use. I sold it because I wanted to be more portable and every few days i regret it just a little bit.

All that to say... the NTK is decent, but get a great mic (U195, U87,etc. or if your broke I second the ADK Hamburg - i use it in my writing room and it stands up in many ways - not as deep or detailed but characteristically very good) ... and a great comp. - if you can't afford an LA2A or LA3A get a DBX 160 or check out the FMR RNC or RNLA.

.02

cheers,

[denial]

We were recording a male vocal the other day.

The mics were:
Telefunken USA Ela M 251E
Neumann M149
Rode NTK

Preamps were:
Avalon vt737
Neve 1073
API 512C

Although the preamps did make a tonal difference, this was the general experience with each mic:

251E = full bodied, beautiful smooth tops, creamy.
M149 = slightly thinner than the 251, very detailed, clear and sensitive.
NTK = thinner than the M149, tops were hyped.

The 251 exhibits a finished sound. It doesn't require much (if any) EQ or compression. No complaints with it in any department. No need for a de-esser. An exceptional mic in every way.

The M149's detail was impressive. Bacause it's so sensitive it was great at capturing lip movement and breaths. This mic cops a bit of abuse on forums but it is still an exceptional mic. It's very clear and clean. Cuts through distorted guitars well.

The NTK does not take EQ well. The top end is a disaster and all round just sounds cheap. Nothing impressive about this mic.

So what does this all mean? Spend the money and buy a great mic. A U67 is a great choice if you can stretch it.

[NathanEldred]

Charter Oaks microphones are great bang for the buck, they sound like more expensive microphones and are built like tanks. The SA538B is airier and more 'chiseled' sounding, the SA538 standard model is more neutral in frequency response. Both are tube units with output transformer so there won't be a lack of nice color. You don't have to have a real 'Neve' to get excellent sound, there are a lot of preamps out there that are a lot less than $3500 for a pre/EQ that will deliver professional results.

[thenoodle]

After ten or eleven years, I'm beginning to think that the Lawson is a total mystery to folks looking for a U67 type.

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by thenoodle

After ten or eleven years, I'm beginning to think that the Lawson is a total mystery to folks looking for a U67 type.

L47mp was one of my favs on the Lynn fuston mic shootout CD. I'll probably pick one up in the future.