can Digital AES cable double as Mic cable?

chrisjin · 4th July 2003

I need one extra mic cable and I've got an extra appogee wydeeye cable XLR around that I've only used between digital connections..anyone know if there is any reason one should not use this as a mic cable? is the impedance different or is it just a really good mic cable as well....just wondering. thanks

e-cue · 4th July 2003

Yes, it will do you fine. All the cables I own are magami aes spec, which is a bit overkill, but I don't really need too many.

chrisjin · 4th July 2003

thanks e-cue...

Jax · 4th July 2003

fwiw I'm using Belden 1800F AES cable throughout my studio (including mics and all analog/digital signal chains) and it sounds/functions great. I seem to remember someone else on this board doing the same.

Dave Martin · 4th July 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Jax
fwiw I'm using Belden 1800F AES cable throughout my studio (including mics and all analog/digital signal chains) and it sounds/functions great. I seem to remember someone else on this board doing the same.

That would be me. There's another Belden AES cable (maybe 1800B) that is a biot thicker and can be used for temporary applications (I believe that the 1800F is meant for permanent installs); as soon as I can get around to building them, I will replace all of the analog mic cables in the studio with that.

faeflora · 4th July 2003

Oh yes indeedydoodie. AES/EBU cable has lower impedance so everything should sound clearer than normal cable.

I have 96 patchbays tied to breakout panels with AES/EBU wire and it all sounds great.

Jax · 4th July 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Martin
That would be me. There's another Belden AES cable (maybe 1800B) that is a biot thicker and can be used for temporary applications (I believe that the 1800F is meant for permanent installs); as soon as I can get around to building them, I will replace all of the analog mic cables in the studio with that.

I'm still a little confused about the differences between the two 100' spools of 1800F that I have. The first spool's cable has a shiny, flexible jacket and the wires inside are white and blue. The other spool's cable is flat black and not very flexible compared to the first spool, and the wires are black and red. Each spool has a big '1800F' sticker ontop, and the cables from each are printed with Belden 1800F etc. etc. They both do the same job with no audible or functional difference, so I'm not too concerned.

Still, to try and make sure these were both 1800F and not A or B, I called the co. I ordered from, Markertek, and told them about the differences. Confused, they called Belden and then told me it was infact 1800F.

Dave, what color are the wires in your 1800F and what's the jacket like?

Also, between the 1800F and A/B, I would think only the jacket is thicker, not the wire itself (?).

Rab · 4th July 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by faeflora
Oh yes indeedydoodie. AES/EBU cable has lower impedance so everything should sound clearer than normal cable.

This is news to me... are you saying it's actually better to use 110ohm cable for mic cables? Does this also hold true for all line-level signal cabling? I'm about to rewire a room so this is of great interest.

e-cue · 4th July 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Rab
This is news to me... are you saying it's actually better to use 110ohm cable for mic cables? Does this also hold true for all line-level signal cabling? I'm about to rewire a room so this is of great interest.

In theory yes. Less resistance would mean, for one example, when you crank up a mic pre, you won't hear at much noise. I hear people debate back and forth about th actually sound of cables, and all I know is I started using only aes mogami so I could always go dig with them, and have noticed less noise/buzz, etc.

faeflora · 4th July 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Rab
This is news to me... are you saying it's actually better to use 110ohm cable for mic cables? Does this also hold true for all line-level signal cabling? I'm about to rewire a room so this is of great interest.

Yup. If I were you though, I'd order a few feet of each type and do a listening test. If I were doing long runs, I'd definetly use AES/EBU cable.

mpr3 · 5th July 2003

I also use Belden 1800f for everything. Like e-cue, if I am going to be soldering my ass off making cable, I want to be able to use them most anywhere in the studio; patch, mic, or AES. Long ago I fell for the hype and spent over 100 bucks on a few Monster 1000 mic cables, which was almost half the price I paid for a 1000' spool of the 1800f. Yes, soldering sucks, but this cable sounds just as good if not better than any Monster.

Jax, the wires in my cable are red and black, with a copper drain and 2 white support strings wrapped in a tight braid. The 'f' stand for flexible, so if you can bent it around pretty easily and it has a braid then it is 1800f. Alot of the cheaper digital cables don't have a braid, but use a tin shield instead. This is what sets the Belden 1800f and some Mogami digital cables apart from the rest.

Jax · 5th July 2003

mpr3, perhaps one of my spools is mislabeled, because the one with flat black 1800 'F' is not as flexible and easy to work with as the spool with the shiny cable.

ExistanceMusic · 6th July 2003

Jax, why don't you jjust grab a Multimeter and check the resistance? Should be of more use than what colour the insulation is....

Walling1 · 6th July 2003

I think what you want to be looking at is capacitance, not resistance. Digital cables of all sorts - audio and serial/CAT5 types - have a lower capacitance. The higher the capacitance, the more high frequency roll-off there is, which effects high speed digital transfers of all types, and if bad enough, analog audio as well, especially with long cables. So yes, AES cabling is better for analog cabling. Check out www.avcable.com - they list the capacitance of all the types of wire they sell. They have good prices on bulk cable and the build quality of their custom work is top-notch. They also have freq. charts for their different wire types - you'll notice that the high freq response directly coorelates to the capacitance. Belden lists the capacitance of their various types of wire on their website as well.

Gee, I wish I could join y'all for some soldering, but, uh, I have to, uh, defrag my hard drives or something...

-Dave

Jax · 7th July 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by ExistanceMusic
Jax, why don't you jjust grab a Multimeter and check the resistance? Should be of more use than what colour the insulation is....

Nah, both are using the same wire. They have the same amount of strands, the 'thickness' (they're very thin) appears to be the same, and most importantly, they sound exactly the same when blind tested. What's strange is that neither Belden or Markertek seemed to catch the difference in jackets.

aptzero · 10th July 2003

The red and black conductor 1800F is simply more recent. They used to make it with blue and white conductors and they changed that and the jacket. Not sure why.

At work we've used thousands of feet of the stuff and one day when we reordered it was black and red and has been ever since. Matches the ADC punchblocks and patchbays we use so we figured what the hell.

jp

knightfly · 20th July 2003

Guys, Dave's right about the capacitance thing - typical so-called 600 ohm mic cable usually runs anywhere from 30-60 pF per foot, where digital cables run around 8-15 pF per foot.

Several years ago, I was in a band that normally ran sound from stage (me, along with keys/rhythm guitar/lights) and therefore didn't have a snake - got asked to do an outdoor benefit for a volunteer fire group, so I built a snake out of some Belden Datalene, 27 pair data cable and some freebie XLR's, 120 feet long. We were the 4th band on the roster, so I was running sound til then - I initially zeroed the board with all the Hi EQ's at +3, thinking that the long run would probably eat up a fair amount of treble - after the PA cut our heads off, I re-zeroed the board with the HF at -4, and it was STILL plenty bright.

Capacitance has more of an effect on hi Z than low, and I was running all low Z with Whirlwind DI's, but it STILL was unreal how much treble there was.

I still have about 350 feet of that cable saved for wiring the new studio, got the whole spool scrap for $10 just because a fork lift ran over it somewhere near the middle... Steve

4th July 2003	#1
chrisjin Gear nut Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 105 Thread Starter	can Digital AES cable double as Mic cable? I need one extra mic cable and I've got an extra appogee wydeeye cable XLR around that I've only used between digital connections..anyone know if there is any reason one should not use this as a mic cable? is the impedance different or is it just a really good mic cable as well....just wondering. thanks

6th July 2003	#13
ExistanceMusic Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 478	Jax, why don't you jjust grab a Multimeter and check the resistance? Should be of more use than what colour the insulation is.... __________________ Jesse Mahoney ExistanceMusic :at: hotmail dot com

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4th July 2003	#2
e-cue Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Lost Angeles Posts: 4,061	Yes, it will do you fine. All the cables I own are magami aes spec, which is a bit overkill, but I don't really need too many.

4th July 2003	#4
Jax Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 4,763	fwiw I'm using Belden 1800F AES cable throughout my studio (including mics and all analog/digital signal chains) and it sounds/functions great. I seem to remember someone else on this board doing the same.

4th July 2003	#6
faeflora Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: washington dc Posts: 2,019	Oh yes indeedydoodie. AES/EBU cable has lower impedance so everything should sound clearer than normal cable. I have 96 patchbays tied to breakout panels with AES/EBU wire and it all sounds great.

5th July 2003	#11
mpr3 Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Clemente, CA Posts: 338	I also use Belden 1800f for everything. Like e-cue, if I am going to be soldering my ass off making cable, I want to be able to use them most anywhere in the studio; patch, mic, or AES. Long ago I fell for the hype and spent over 100 bucks on a few Monster 1000 mic cables, which was almost half the price I paid for a 1000' spool of the 1800f. Yes, soldering sucks, but this cable sounds just as good if not better than any Monster. Jax, the wires in my cable are red and black, with a copper drain and 2 white support strings wrapped in a tight braid. The 'f' stand for flexible, so if you can bent it around pretty easily and it has a braid then it is 1800f. Alot of the cheaper digital cables don't have a braid, but use a tin shield instead. This is what sets the Belden 1800f and some Mogami digital cables apart from the rest.

6th July 2003	#14
Walling1 Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 107	I think what you want to be looking at is capacitance, not resistance. Digital cables of all sorts - audio and serial/CAT5 types - have a lower capacitance. The higher the capacitance, the more high frequency roll-off there is, which effects high speed digital transfers of all types, and if bad enough, analog audio as well, especially with long cables. So yes, AES cabling is better for analog cabling. Check out www.avcable.com - they list the capacitance of all the types of wire they sell. They have good prices on bulk cable and the build quality of their custom work is top-notch. They also have freq. charts for their different wire types - you'll notice that the high freq response directly coorelates to the capacitance. Belden lists the capacitance of their various types of wire on their website as well. Gee, I wish I could join y'all for some soldering, but, uh, I have to, uh, defrag my hard drives or something... -Dave

10th July 2003	#16
aptzero Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: dc area Posts: 30	The red and black conductor 1800F is simply more recent. They used to make it with blue and white conductors and they changed that and the jacket. Not sure why. At work we've used thousands of feet of the stuff and one day when we reordered it was black and red and has been ever since. Matches the ADC punchblocks and patchbays we use so we figured what the hell. jp

20th July 2003	#17
knightfly Gear interested Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: West Coast USA Posts: 6	Guys, Dave's right about the capacitance thing - typical so-called 600 ohm mic cable usually runs anywhere from 30-60 pF per foot, where digital cables run around 8-15 pF per foot. Several years ago, I was in a band that normally ran sound from stage (me, along with keys/rhythm guitar/lights) and therefore didn't have a snake - got asked to do an outdoor benefit for a volunteer fire group, so I built a snake out of some Belden Datalene, 27 pair data cable and some freebie XLR's, 120 feet long. We were the 4th band on the roster, so I was running sound til then - I initially zeroed the board with all the Hi EQ's at +3, thinking that the long run would probably eat up a fair amount of treble - after the PA cut our heads off, I re-zeroed the board with the HF at -4, and it was STILL plenty bright. Capacitance has more of an effect on hi Z than low, and I was running all low Z with Whirlwind DI's, but it STILL was unreal how much treble there was. I still have about 350 feet of that cable saved for wiring the new studio, got the whole spool scrap for $10 just because a fork lift ran over it somewhere near the middle... Steve