Help needed with THIS drumkit

[opus]

?????????
how about Neumanns, Sehneseirs, AKG and Shure. You need a vintage boomy sound:
Kick ass Ludwig set: check.
Big Hall: check.
Large selections of Neumanns, Sehneseirs, AKG and Shure: check.

What pre's are you using cause it seems like you got the set up you need.

[Chris Parsons]

Yeah man...i'm jealous

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by Gio

Hi guys,

so this is the question...:::

..this is the drumkit you're going to record...see attached file...
...you're going to record it in a very big hall..
...you're looking for a very vintage and boooomy sound
..you have a large selections of Neumanns, Sehneseirs, AKG and Shure...

so....which type of mikes are you going to use...


thanks...
gio

You mean to get John Bonham's sound??



Nice kit.

[Matt Grondin]

Yeah, green sparkle Ludwig's with two floortoms defintely equals Bonham. If the drums are tuned up right and you have a great drummer, I'd go with an RE-20 on the kick and two Neumann OH's such as U67 or U87's. If you need more, do a 57 on the snare and 421's on the toms. Oh yeah, ROOM MICS squashed to the max with an 1176. Later.

[mltamisin]

Looks like Bonham's old recording kit so use Bonham's technique. Go buy Jeff Ocheltree's new video. He's Bonham's old tech. Also designed Tool's drummer Danny Carey's kit. He used only a close mic on the kick & maybe the snare. I don't recall if he close mic'ed the snare. Everything else was room. Seems like he used 4 C12's. 2 overhead and 2 room. Whatever makes the kick sound good (U47, RE20, whatever you want D112, D6) and whatever makes the snare sound good (e22, i5, SM57). But since John Bonham isn't your drummer you may want to reconsider when you hear the drummer on this kit in the room. May require 421's or 414's or 57's on the toms. Get the video though. You won't be disappointed.

[digibird]

I would want to try 2 mic set-ups with that beautiful Ludwig kit.

1. Earthworks 3-pk. http://www.earthworksaudio.com/30.html

or,

2. Look at your vast collection of u-47, u-67 and u-87's (!). Pick two of them as drum overheads. Pick one more and put it a few feet in front of the kick drum.

In either case, use a pair of 87's for your room mics as well to capture this sweet hall you're gonna have the drums in. (Or maybe try AEA R84 for room for a different approach)

So, either way, 3 mics on drums with 2 room mics, 5 mics total for either set-up.

Use Great River MP2NV pres on each of the mics and this will surely be a beautiful thing.

[Eric Greedy]

start with a pair of U67's (if you have a pair of those) or U87's. Out in front of the kit 8' to 10' high..adjust the width to taste. Use this as your main pair...as OH/Room mics. Then add a kick. not too close on the kick. That will pretty much do it. If you want to add some modern coverage (just to have and be safe) then go for snare, and toms..but kinda high off the instruments 3"-4" and 45-degree angle towards the spot where he hits. Snare ..come in from the hat side...angle down so back of mic faces snare for max rejection. Oh...on the toms...try sm58's if you got them..on the snare...just a 57.

You'll pretty much nail it with just the first three. But if you get them all to sound good together you'll be covered in case the production gets too many layers and you actually need more attack.

[jomo1234]

Before you decide which mics you are going to use, make sure that your kit is TUNED and set up right! No amount of high end microphones will compensate for a poorly tuned kit.

[Beefsurgeon]

One crucial thing: replace the resonant side kick drum head! Whether or not you prefer to have a hole in it, it is never a good idea to put it in the middle. Offset it to the side and you will get much better tone. Good luck!

[Alexi]

i tried the glyn john technique recently....easy to achieve a good sound with it if your room sounds killer.

use 3 ldc's

and 2 dynamics

[mltamisin]

Hell yeah, go with the Earthworks drumkit system with the 3 mic's. Kickass sound.

[Gio]

Thanks guys!!


Merry Chistmas everybody!!

gio

[chetatkinsdiet]

That kit is pretty much my setup. I"m not sure what size ride tom you've got there, but that's the same kit as I have. Mine's an early 70s and in the natural maple...another bonham fav.

I've had incredible luck with a pair of SDC's overhead, a 57 on the snare and whatever kick mic is your fav. I've used re20 or even lately an ATM25.

I'd also put another front head on. I don't mind a hole, but don't center it and don't make it more than 4" in diameter.

With a good drummer in a good room, you can probably get a great kit like that to sound good using just about any mics.

later,
m

[Benjy King]

Wow.....Some people have really figured this shit out!
_____________________
Holes in Your Head or Not
*
Here are the basic concepts:
*
·******** Any hole larger than 7” is like having no head at all on the drum.
*
·******** A 7” hole creates the feel of a one-headed kick drum, feeds more beater attack direct to an audience and provides some of the tone of the resonant head. Further, it’s easy to position a mic and change internal muffling devices, if used.
*
·******** A 4-1/2” or 5” hole, or even 2 such holes, offset, allows some relief for rebound control of the kick beater, contains more of the drums resonance so that the resonant head is more pronounced in the tuning of the drum. A 4-1/2” hole is difficult to get large mic’s positioned within (but can be done) and/or internal muffling altered.
*
·******** No hole, very resonant, creates more bounce or rebound from the kick beater.* It can become difficult to get the “slap” of the beater and resonance of the drum both when miced with one microphone.* The muffling remains inside. The resonant head is very predominant in the overall sound.
*
There are usually four reasons why drummers want a hole (or multiple holes) in the bass drum:
*
·******** It looks cool.
·******** They do not like the feel of the beater on the batter head surface, it bounces as a result of not enough air relief.
·******** They need to mic the drum from or capture the sound from the inside.
·******** They want more projection without using a mic (less bass impact, more beater attack presence).
*
For those who want it because it looks cool, there is an acoustic impact on the sound by placing a hole or holes in the resonant side. By acoustic impact I mean that the removal of head material does affect the bass portion of the note coming from the drum.*
*
Allot of the “bass” portion of what you hear is based upon the surface area in the center of the drum.* That surface area is a diaphragm working much like a speaker radiator might work, in that it will aid in moving air. Remember that pitch is dictated by the tension and the surface area in movement. So if you remove a large center portion, you lose a large portion of the bass reinforcement that gets emitted by the heads movement and tension usually has to increase to compensate for the removal of the center area.* Adding holes does not increase bass content as might be the case on a tuned vented speaker cabinet would.
*
Thicker heads tend to stay in motion longer. With loose tension they will vibrate at a lesser rate, which all translates into lower pitch and a longer resonance.* This assumes no internal muffling, or other devices to make the head stop its vibrating motion sooner.
*
Some want the different feel created by having air relief but still want maximum bass affect.* As you remove more head area you trade off deep bass for a different feel.* A solution is using smaller holes placed around the perimeter of the head.* If you want the mic to capture sound from inside, you either have to resort to say the May mic system or revert to a larger hole to get the mic into the drum as you require. What you ultimately do will be based upon the balcance of all the factors that are important to you.
*
It is the area of the hole that counts. Where it is located matters little for the affect on sound (as long as it isn't on the batter side).* If you want maximum tone out of the head, then the size of each hole needs to be in the 1-2” size, and they need be placed closer to the perimeter, but not placed so the edge of the hole is closer than about 1” to the break for the bearing edge.* In other words, for the best tone, you need to keep as much of the center of the resonant head intact as possible. And again, it’s not the number, it’s the area displaced that can make a big difference and where that area is removed.* You can make any number you want, in the following example to illustrate the concept we'll make two holes to represent the maximum area displaced by a common 7 inch hole.
*
The math is simple. We first need to calculate the area of a 7” hole. To do this we use the formula Pi(R<sum>). So first find half of the diameter of the 7" hole (the radius), which is 3.5”. Now multiply that times itself.* So 3.5 x 3.5 = 12.25.* Then take this result of 12.25 and multiply it times Pi, which is 3.142. So we now have 12.25 x 3.142 = 38.5.* So the area of the 7 inch hole we started with is 38.5 square inches.* This 38.5 sq. in. is important. We will simply round it up to 40 square inches, cause close is enough.
*
Now we can use any number of holes as long as is does not cumulatively exceed 40 square inches of total area. Yet at the same time does equal 40 square inches. This will be the same air relief as having one 7” hole and the end result will be more center surface are and a stronger bass affect.
*
Now take the 40 sq. in. and divide by 2, 3, or 4, what ever.* Let’s say you want 3 holes.* 40 ÷ 3 = 13.33.* So 13.33 is the maximum area for each of the 3 holes. So we now take the 13.33 ÷ Pi (which is 3.142) = 4.24.* Now extract the square root (from a math table or calculator) of 4.24 and you get 2.06.* So 2 x 2.06 = 4.12.* This means 3 holes of 4.12 diameter will give the same acoustic result as a single 7” hole.
*
Let’s say you have1 hole of a diameter of 4.5”, a common bass drum hole.* Let’s compute the area displaced by that single 4.5” hole. (Math: 4.5 ÷ 2 = 2.25, THEN 2.25 x 2.25 = 5.0625, THEN 5.0625 x 3.142 = 15.9).* A 4.5” hole has an area of 15.9 sq. in.
*
In the above example we show that if we were to use 2 holes of 4.5”, the cumulative affect will have less area (31.8 sq. in. total) than that of a single 7” hole, whichj we learned was about 40 sq. in. The 2 – 4.5” holes will therefore be a little more bass heavy than will a head with a 7” hole because they do not remove as much of the heads surface, although you probably will not hear it.*
*
As the bass drum is equipped with a solid resonant head, it will always sound warmer or more bass heavy.* The smaller holes are designed to allow relief yet still allow the resonant head to resonate.* As you cut away more of the head there is less to resonate.
*
More large holes will make the drum a little louder and more present out front. Smaller holes around the perimeter gives better feel but the drum retains warmth.
*
So if you want more acoustic impact from the resonant head itself, create less “hole” area.
*

[DirkB]

If I wasn't producing and did not know what what room the drums where going to get in the mix I'd do the following.

Make sure you have a mono drum room mic that records the kit completely and is "squasheble", i.e. not too much cymbals. This can be used as mono room or just be the only mic used if they are going for the Bonzo thing.

Use an x/y or ORTF SD pair of overheads, close mic's on everything, you never know...

Outside kick mic and stereo room.

Basically you want to give whomever is going to mix all options. He/she can decide what to use.

For my taste, I'd go for a roomy sound with that kind of kit in a rock and roll setting. Perhaps just a mono room, mono overhead and close kick and snare .

Good luck,
Dirk