describe the difference between real valve and emulations like vintage warmer?

[david1103]

Hello everyone,

I am new to the forum, sorry to start my posting here with a question that might annoy some people, but I am very interesed in and respect the opinions I am reading here. I do think that the only way to know if what you have is not that good is when you hear something better!

I have done much searching the forum, and much research. I am not in a position to hear the hardware I am interested in before I buy, so am relying on people's opinions.

My setup is basic, but will expand as soon as cash allows. I am mainly producing my own music, but am expanding to produce for others too. Heres the setup:

Cubase SX2 + Various Plugs and VSTi's
Doepher 404 monosynth
Cheeta ms6 polysynth
roland sh101
shure sm57 mic
cheap behringer desk (shudder)
event echo mia sound card

I produce electronic music, with some vocals and guitar. It is varied from ambient/dub to full on hardcore with screaming vocals and guitars.

I am always trying to make things sound more 'old'/'not out of cubase'/'analogue'/'3d'. The only way to put it is that modern albums often sound totally flat compared to releases from the late 70's, like they are made of plastic, everything is an emulation and sounds somehow fake.

I am hoping to improve my recordings by putting my synths/soft synths/guitars through a valve pre-amp in the hope of making them sound 'better' (you could say more like the recordings from the late 70's, or 'vintage')

I have player with vintage warmer and like this type of effect, but my question is would it be a 'night and day' difference (I keep on reading that phrase here) if I got something like the TAB-Funkenwerk V71DI to go straight into the balanced inputs of my sound card, and run stuff through it?

Is it possible to say how much better the valve distortion/warming effect would be over software? I am looking for something that will sound authentic, not full on boards of canada tape wow. Something that software can't provide. I am not only after valve sound, but that magic something that I am sure only high quality gear can provide.

Thanks!! And please nobody tell me that what I am hearing on the records I like is a combination of amazing musicians, best vintage equipment, etc etc. I know I can't get that great a sound on what I have, but would real valves blow away software emulations and bring me a step closer?

David

[faeflora]

The difference between vintage warmer / other warming software fx and hardware is subtlety.

The soft plugs I've used (not TDM, all VST/AU) are all to my ears, very blatant effects. That or they just sound like algorithms. What I mean by "sounding like algorithms" is kinda hard to describe. Easiest way to put it is that they sound fake.

Modern flat sounding music isn't so much due to software- big budgets can afford to use whatever outboard they want. It's because (IMO) modern tech (hardware and software) to polish a track to such an extreme that it's dead.

High quality outboard gear can make a huge difference in your mixes. If I were you, I would do the following-

1. start with quality outboard fx i.e. eventide or kurzweil or other big $ fx platforms. do this because quality fx will make the greatest impact on the sound of your mixes. you'll hear the difference between a good verb and a mediocre/shit very in a mix much more easily than the difference between an $800 and $4000 A/D converter (unless you're dumping piles of analog sources into your mix, in which case the shite conversion may become noticable). Get GOOD fx. I picked up a eventide H8K (PRICEY) but it is absolutely amazing and made a huge difference in my mixes vs. when my mixes were based on plugs (and I'm a plug master ).

2. get a top end EQ. Color/clean, it doesn't really matter. Just get something that's stereo so you can use it for busses (including the master if necessary). This is of course, assuming that you like using eq. Some people don't. I do. Good hardware eq kills all but the best (so i've read about the gml oxford eq) software eq.

3. if you're really tracking a lot of outboard synth, get a good DI. The TAB-funkenwerk is awesome (i've got one) and it really is very very nice.

4. get some nice compressors! software compressors are weak and can't do nearly as much or sound nearly as good as hardware comps.

--


If you really want your stuff to sound more 70's like, try the following-

use fewer tracks for your songs/mixes.
use fewer fx.
use less compression
don't smash your mixes
learn to engineer well (the old school engineers seemed to know how to make things sound GOOD much better than the new school does IMO)

[Anonymatt]

Dude, VintageWarmer is one of the only plug-ins I use that doesn't totally eat balls.

With most compressor/warmer plugs, I have to really WANT advertised effect in order to put up with the artifacts that are going to be introduced to the signal.

The PSP thing actually makes me smile and does what I want it to do from the moment I instantiate it. I adjust the "drive" to maybe "3" or so, then adjust the knee and ceiling to where there's only 1 dB of GR--and pleasantly so.

The only place where I use the thing for up to 3-4 dB of GR is on the drums buss, where I always, always use it.

Keep in mind, I'm really just a weekend warrior. My experience with tube gear is mostly on the listening-while-assisting end of things. However, I know what I like, and given the conveniences associated with plugs balanced against the gold standard of well-designed tube gear, I'd say that there are at least a few decent software products out there.

But, even if we were both driving the same car on similar roads using the same octane gasoline, I'm certain that your gas mileage would vary from mine as a function of operator methodology and seemingly incalcuable inconsistencies on the part of the vehicles' manufacturer. Whatever.

[GearHunter]

The difference between real tube-circuit hardware and any of the emulations or plug ins, IMO, is that the real tube stuff typically sounds cleaner and more hi-fi, which is funny. The real sound of tubes is usually less "tubey" than the copy-cats, because the plugs are trying to create audible harmonic distiortion and dirt. Genuine high-quality tube gear is trying to be high-fidelity, and detailed with plenty of headroom. It also can't help imparting a subtle harmonic or euphonic warmth, which enhances musicality.

The thing I think that makes the MOST audible difference in wheter something is warm or not is whether it uses transformers, or is transformerless. That's why a lot of my favorite and most musical-sounding gear is transformer-based solid-state, like Neve, API, etc.

[david1103]

Cheers guys!

I do agree about the quality of the FX. It wasn't until I got some Dynaudio BM6 monitors that I really started to hear the difference.

faeflora, I have been using convolution reverb with an emt plate impulse that made the software based eq i was using before sound like a mono tin shack impulse!

I am starting to trust my ears more now, and wonder if anyone agrees that the best quality reverb impulses there are, are the http://www.echochamber.ch 32bit quantec impulses... just click the neue impulse responses von TC VSS-3 (M6000) & Uad-140 link when you open the page and go to the bottom. They seem 'real' but still electronic? I have tried other impulses of the quantec from noisevault that sound very poor in comparison. It sounds like the Concertgebou altiverb impulse, but more suitable for electronic music, used where the Concertgebou would be too 'real'. Could hardware really get much better than that? Please have a listen, they are all 100% free to download

Based on what people say I will get a v71di when i can afford it. I was toying between that and the H&K tubeman, but I am assuming the v71di will get me 'hi-fi' as well as distortion.

Another very high quality effect I have used is the Voxengo HarmoniEQ, I don't understand why everyone isn't going on about it more... maybe my ears still need to listen harder!

David

[bunnerabb]

The real sound of tubes is usually less "tubey" than the copy-cats, because the plugs are trying to create audible harmonic distiortion and dirt. Genuine high-quality tube gear is trying to be high-fidelity, and detailed with plenty of headroom.

thumbsup

There are very few vocals that go through my DAW without getting PSP Vintage Warmer slapped on them.

It is not just subtle, it has almost no blatant artifacts.

This as close to an actual tube comp as plug ins may ever get, IMHO.

Dramatic, tight, clean, and warm.

It sounds like electrons.

No mean feat.

Definitely worth the outlay.

The difference?

For a plug-in, precious llittle.

I don't hear a "signature sound" and that, for a plug-in - is the shit, for my money.

All that crunchy BS that tube sims stuff up your flue is not what tubes are about.

[RainbowStorm]

All you guys that run Vintage Warmer, I strongly recommend that you check out PSP Mix Saturator! thumbsup I have not been able to dial in any of those warm harmonics found in PSP Mix Saturator in Vintage Warmer, Vintage Warmer sounds really rounded and hard while Mix Saturator sounds rounded and soft. Mix Saturator is very tweakable too! I have tried convincing myself that Vintage Warmer is somehow better, because I've read so much good stuff about it, but now I have stopped with that and use PSP Mix Saturator if I want analog warmth. To me this is the best analog warmth alternative I've found so far when it comes to plug-ins.

[cl516]

back to one of faeflora's earlier points about outboard fx...

if we don't take into account the converters,
how much better are i.e.eventide's flanger or phaser algorithms than a native plugin on a DAW?

would you say that even though an outboard fx is digital,
its algorithms are much more sophisticated,
resulting in a 'better/denser' version of a chorus or flanger?

[Zeppelin4Life]

A good answer would be that plugins can definetly add warmth and character to the sound, but they definetly do not sound like tape. With that said, they are pretty cool. If you think about how complex the algorithms are, it's amazing. But only tape sounds like tape; to my ears at least. For the price of a few of thoes plugins you can go out and get a decent old 1/4" reel2reel at 15ips...thats what i did..my revox is totally awesome.

[beyarecords]

Originally Posted by TonyCrazyMan

All you guys that run Vintage Warmer, I strongly recommend that you check out PSP Mix Saturator! thumbsup

I second that! I have been testing it for a while now and it is an excellent plug. I tried vintage warmer but it just didn't do for me what mix saturator did.

Beya

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by david1103

I am starting to trust my ears more now

You'll be fine, then.

This thread is really chock full of good stuff.

[Watersound]

I love the Vintage Warmer!

[faeflora]

Originally Posted by cl516

back to one of faeflora's earlier points about outboard fx...

if we don't take into account the converters,
how much better are i.e.eventide's flanger or phaser algorithms than a native plugin on a DAW?

would you say that even though an outboard fx is digital,
its algorithms are much more sophisticated,
resulting in a 'better/denser' version of a chorus or flanger?

They're superior to every plug that I've used. I don't know if the algorithms are more sophisticated. They just sound better. BTW eventide/ksp converters are excellent. Not as good as Apogee ADDA16X but I wouldn't hesitate to track through them.

BTW I do use vintage warmer and the psp tape sat. And I still think that they sound like plugs and not like analog gear. They are useful though, and I can do things with them that I can't do with a Fatso or outboard comps.

[u b k]

some of this is repetition, but it merits repeating.

you want old school sound, you need tape. if you skip tape and go directly to the next step, any next step, you will forever be chasing a form of mojo that will elude you completely.

a good tube pre/di is also a great idea, although not as indispensible.

things like gates sta-levels and 1176's would also serve you well.

lastly, think long and hard about distortion, because it is your friend. especially in very subtle stages, a little at a time. overdriving analog, especially pieces with tubes and/or transformers, is heaven, and gives you compression that can't be had elsewhere.

so overdrive your di to the point where you can just begin to hear it break up, then back off just until it cleans up. set it halfway between those two settings and hit tape, doing the exact same thing. record into your daw with conservative levels (-14db on the peaks, yes that's right, the peaks). use high quality dsp if you must, psp is great stuff, to add yet another layer of fuzzy love. less is more, patience is key.

mix into something, preferably hardware, doing very fast compression so it rides and distorts the transients. mix to tape.

if you're feeling adventurous, scour ebay and yard sales for old, crappy, yet somehow promising pieces of stereo equipment. run things thru them at dangerous levels and see what happens. same with guitar pedals. learn about reamping; a drum loop thru a guitar amp mic'd with a 57 is a sound you cannot get from any plug in or hardware unit. put the amp in the bathroom and the mic in the dishwasher. drop acid and see what else you can dream up.

to paraphrase a gearslutz mantra, if it sounds insane, it IS good.


gregoire
del ubik

[beyarecords]

Originally Posted by u b i k

lastly, think long and hard about distortion, because it is your friend. especially in very subtle stages, a little at a time. overdriving analog, especially pieces with tubes and/or transformers, is heaven, and gives you compression that can't be had elsewhere.

Indeed!!!

check out this on the Charles Dye Website - 'Saturation and the digital mix buss':

http://www.harddisklife.com/

Beya

[shanghaitang]

mix saturator is great. i use it on drums the most