RADAR + Toft ATB 16 = perfect home studio?

[subspace]

Originally Posted by arpodthegreat

i love the idea of having you mic pre come into the same channel as your monitor return, being able to assign the pre to the fader and the mon to the knob for tracking and then with the press of a button switching them for mixing. genius.

(not bad for a first joke i think)

Indeed, that bit got me to LOL.

[Marjan]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Don't forget that a RADAR only handles 24 tracks at a time... unless you have a 48 track system... or a 72 track system... or a 96 track system [continue progression until you get to like 216]

That's right... your "unless" bit makes the difference... the RADAR is expandable... the 002 is not. So upgrade wouldn't happen side by side... which wouldn't work for me.

[Fletcher]

Whatever... I'm of the opinion that if you require more than 24 tracks to make a record then you're looking at either a shitty song that is trying to use added horseshit to save it... or a production team that can't make a decision.

It's your music... do what you want with it.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Whatever... I'm of the opinion that if you require more than 24 tracks to make a record then you're looking at either a shitty song that is trying to use added horseshit to save it... or a production team that can't make a decision.

It's your music... do what you want with it.

That's not really true anymore.

Yes. I can make a rock record with 24 tracks but it is a compromise I'm glad to have left in the past.

That's not to say that I want 50 or 60 things happening at once, that would be a nightmare. I just like to give everything it's own track.

This avoids using any Automation until the very end.

For instance, years ago I would dedicate 2 or 3 tracks for guitar overdubs. Nowadays it can easily be 20. No more than 2 or 3 at the same time, but they may all sound a little different and at the least warrant different levels.

I'm mixing a record right now where I have one of the guitar players tracks (one guitar) split up onto 5 different tracks for level reasons alone.

This may sound insane but I like to spend 5 or 6 hours getting levels and less than one hour actually automating.

Peace.

[Marjan]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Whatever... I'm of the opinion that if you require more than 24 tracks to make a record then you're looking at either a shitty song that is trying to use added horseshit to save it... or a production team that can't make a decision.

I use 25 tracks with my Radar system.

[warhead]

I just stepped out of a session where on one hip-hop song one artist laid down 18 vocal tracks. 3 lead for comp / blend, 12 layered backups (6 on each chorus), and 3 adlib tracks. There was maybe 14 tracks of stuff from a Motif, kicks, sound effects, bass, etc.

24 track limit and these folks would have told me to take a hike.

War

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Produceher

That's not really true anymore.

Yes. I can make a rock record with 24 tracks but it is a compromise I'm glad to have left in the past.

That's not to say that I want 50 or 60 things happening at once, that would be a nightmare. I just like to give everything it's own track.

This avoids using any Automation until the very end.

For instance, years ago I would dedicate 2 or 3 tracks for guitar overdubs. Nowadays it can easily be 20. No more than 2 or 3 at the same time, but they may all sound a little different and at the least warrant different levels.

I'm mixing a record right now where I have one of the guitar players tracks (one guitar) split up onto 5 different tracks for level reasons alone.

This may sound insane but I like to spend 5 or 6 hours getting levels and less than one hour actually automating.

Yep... I'm old.

I like to make decisions like that on the fly... mix as I go instead of procrastinating to get the balances and textures at the end...

Ya know, the only difference between making a Beatles record and the monstrosity you're discussing here is that they never compromised on what they put into their records "production" wise... but they did have to make decisions as they went along about balances and content that are postponed with shit like 92 tracks and only 6 of them cowbell.

I mean besides that small thing like the Beatles probably had a song and the 78 guitars tracks are more than likely making up for the fact that the song you're dealing with has as much personality when stripped down to the bare bones as a Carp or a Flounder... otherwise it wouldn't need the 84 tracks of ___.

I picked up my 14 yr. old and 3 of her friends from a show last night... they went to go see a local band [that sold out a 575 capacity room!! Not bad for high school kids!!!]... on the drive back from the city they were talking about "The Who" this and "Led Zeppelin" that and "The Mothers of Invention" [specifically the album "Another Band From LA"]... on and fukking on about records from like 1971-72.

What's up with that?

We can't make anything worth listening to these days?

"Who's Next" didn't have 20 tracks of fukking guitars on it and here we are 30 something years later and the kids are on this thing like white on rice. I could use an explanation here. I'm playing shit like "Louis XIV" and "Death Cab for Cutie" in the car and the fukking kids want to hear "The Who"... 14-15 yr. old kids singing along to "Behind Blue Eyes" [and butchering the harmonies... but kids will be kids].

Sorry to go off on a rant here but I have to say I was totally flummoxed. 45 minute drive [closer to an hour after all the drop-offs] and the only thing they seemed to think was even remotely interesting from this century was Nine Inch Nails [which is mostly from last century]... but they are going out to support "local music".

The high school bands, at least the two I've heard from my small village south of Boston, seem to have 1/2 a clue of how to write a song but sub standard chops on their instruments. In talking to one of the kids who was a guitar player [OK... guitar owner] he already spoke of "yeah, I just record a bunch of stuff then edit it into the song.

I half wanted to puke.

[popmann]

but they did have to make decisions as they went along about balances and content that are postponed with shit like 92 tracks and only 6 of them cowbell.

"I've got a FEEVAH...and the only prescription...is more cowbell!!"



I think the "24 track rule" is a good one. It's a fundamental arrangement lesson.

[lucey]

Irony is that NIN uses a lot of tracks.

What do The Who, Led Zeppelin and Zappa have in common?

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by lucey

What do The Who, Led Zeppelin and Zappa have in common?

Great music, timeless recordings and good players.... besides that nothing much. thumbsup

[Kenny Gioia]

Just to be clear:

I never keep an overdub in my production unless it's going to be in the final or the guitar player really wants it to be there until I can convince him in the mix.

I can't stand to see 96 tracks of garbage that no one has really made room for in the production.

But there is an in between.

I like to make a record that sounds like it was done with 24 tracks (and it could be if I want the cowbell and the lead guitar on the same track) but was done with 48.

I hated the days I've trying to find a spot on the tape to try out and idea.

Oh, no one's singing on this track. Yukk.

"Give me land lotsa land lotsa land. Don't fence me in".

[thesteve]

Hi. Long time reader first time poster... always wanted to say that. I work at a studio that is Radar equipped and I must say it is an incredible machine. Very convinient, fast easy to operate and the nyquist converters are fantastic. However, in order to accomodate larger track counts (usually because of loops, samples, reason sequences etc.)we have a G5 with Nuendo and various pieces of software. This 2nd system is also necessary for some finer editing and cutting and comping because althought the radar is great for simple edits, some of the more intensive microsurgery is not possible. Now... this is where old school guys will cut me to shi* for having to impose microsurgery on a project, but whatev. A radar is an expensive piece of gear, so it will leave little budget for outboard comp, effects and eq if you get tired of the b-range on the ATB. You wont lose much sound quality moving audio to the 002 for some edits and moving it back to the Radar, but what will you do for reverb, delay, comp, gating etc? You definately dont want to synch the system and have some of the outputs of the 002 doing the D-A because it will sound sooooo inferior next to the Radar.

As far as the ATB-16 goes, I have one on the way for "evaluation", and I do actually like the b range eq on the ATC2 so it would stand to reason that I will at the very least dig using the eq on the console. Overall I think that getting 16 channels of b-range eq, plus the 16 pre-s (which are less than stellar, but useable), all of the connectivity the console offers it looks like it will be a great piece of gear. I am not looking to keep the console myself BTW, but I want to get a chance to check it out.

[arpodthegreat]

I think that there exists a compramise, place in between "what do you need >24 for?!" and why not have 96 tracks. i think "born to run" is a great example. they used a lot of tracks but that was because they had a lot of ideas. the songs could have gone in a lot of different directions depending on the mix. plus there's something special about have 4 acoustic guitars and 3 layers of electric and a string quartet, and a choir, and... of course in the end you can sub all that stuff to stereo tracks, but with protools it's so easy to non-destructively keep all those things as individual tracks that are just in groups. Another place for >24 tracks, is on a record like the smashing pumpkins. they use an unfathomable amount of guitar tracks on some songs but it's for a specific, layered sound and the songs are good (IMHO) and sound great when played live with 2 guitars or even on acoustic. it's just that if you have access to a 48 track sony or PT and have a vision... why not? having tracks for the sake of breaking your balls to mix, and all that shit sucks though.

[QUOTE=thesteve]You wont lose much sound quality moving audio to the 002 for some edits and moving it back to the Radar, but what will you do for reverb, delay, comp, gating etc? You definately dont want to synch the system and have some of the outputs of the 002 doing the D-A because it will sound sooooo inferior next to the Radar.

MY plan is to keep it simple.
My thinking was that i would get a couple good compressors and maybe an RNC and RNLA, i have a lexicon pcm-1 or something like that multi-effects that works quite well, i've got some other effects and i'll gradually starting adding stuff like gates and more compressors and what not. i think my best bet is track really well so that it can sound really good without too much mixing, just levels, a little EQ, some compression on the vocals and bass, maybe on the drum sub. in the pro studios i've been too, when they make a rough mix for the client (and they are good clients, with a-list players) there's very little mixing done besides the levels and it already sounds amazing. i figure if i really want to go crazy on the mix, i can always rent some gear for a week, or go to a studio, or even have someone else mix it. the whole idea is that that's post-production. my goal is to make the production, and to make it really really good so that when it's time for post-production stuff, no matter if it's at home or somewhere with lots of great gear, there will be good stuff to work with.

[eligit]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

I picked up my 14 yr. old and 3 of her friends from a show last night... they went to go see a local band [that sold out a 575 capacity room!! Not bad for high school kids!!!]... on the drive back from the city they were talking about "The Who" this and "Led Zeppelin" that and "The Mothers of Invention" [specifically the album "Another Band From LA"]... on and fukking on about records from like 1971-72.

What's up with that?

We can't make anything worth listening to these days?

"Who's Next" didn't have 20 tracks of fukking guitars on it and here we are 30 something years later and the kids are on this thing like white on rice. I could use an explanation here. I'm playing shit like "Louis XIV" and "Death Cab for Cutie" in the car and the fukking kids want to hear "The Who"... 14-15 yr. old kids singing along to "Behind Blue Eyes" [and butchering the harmonies... but kids will be kids].

stop the presses. 14 year old GIRLS listening to zeppelin....?

all is not lost.

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

I think the "24 track rule" is a good one. It's a fundamental arrangement lesson.

WERD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wiggy

[lucey]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Great music, timeless recordings and good players.... besides that nothing much. thumbsup

For one thing, they dont give a shit. For another they're unique.

Everyone today is too smart to commerce, and too concerned with success to be successful. The IT factor is 'I dont give a fuk', plus the things you say.

[indie]

Originally Posted by lucey

For one thing, they dont give a shit. For another they're unique.

Everyone today is too smart to commerce, and too concerned with success to be successful. The IT factor is 'I dont give a fuk', plus the things you say.

I agree. The sad part is, that all the "rulers" of the record companies are basically accountants now. Hardly anyone knows music at positions of power anymore.
So a lot of artists are faced with having to deliver nothing but "singles" to people who don't even know a "single" is, unless it was written by or produced by a writer/producer who had a recent hit.
So I think it's a 2 edged sword, artists have had to become more savvy in order to make it, and music suffers a lot of the time.
Micah

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by lucey

For one thing, they dont give a shit. For another they're unique.

Everyone today is too smart to commerce, and too concerned with success to be successful. The IT factor is 'I dont give a fuk', plus the things you say.

I agree.. and I was making a joke in my response but my points are still valid right? These things are missing in much of today's scene, great music, timeless recordings and good players.

I still firmly believe it is much harder to be unique today than it was in the 60's and 70's but that is another debate altogether.

[kats]

For one thing, they dont give a shit. For another they're unique.

Everyone today is too smart to commerce, and too concerned with success to be successful. The IT factor is 'I dont give a fuk', plus the things you say.

Yup, if it ain't worth doing for free - it'll only be worse for the money.

[lane thaw]

To original poster - Radar and Toft. Don't know where u live, but if you want to get to know a Radar and small console. You are more than welcome to spend time in my studio. My front end however is all Cranesong and Requisite however but I do practice mixes on a Midas Venice and sum to a Audient SUMO. For serious stuff, I will hire a real mixer on a real console to tape (yes someone with better experience in mixing and better ears). It is a Radar II with classic converters, and I'm in Western North Carolina near Asheville.

Follow-up, SUMO didn't do it for me. Just use the Midas now.

[bradb]

just a question:


a RADAR 24, for example, has 24 inputs/outputs and infinite internal "tracks" in the box? So you can have 40 tracks in the box and send out 24 stems?

OR, its basically just like a 24 track tape machine. 24 inputs/outputs and 24 internal tracks?

[trident fan]

Originally Posted by bradb

just a question:


a RADAR 24, for example, has 24 inputs/outputs and infinite internal "tracks" in the box? So you can have 40 tracks in the box and send out 24 stems?

OR, its basically just like a 24 track tape machine. 24 inputs/outputs and 24 internal tracks?

it's like a 24 track analog. no virtual tracks. but it does have a digital patchbay.

[moonpi]

Originally Posted by lucey

What do The Who, Led Zeppelin and Zappa have in common?

Cynthia Plaster Caster?

[DR Music]

Black Lion Audio mods are amazing!! Regardless of what people say!!! Check it out the converters are 1st class on their mods, they also have the Autuer and a 312 clone. All these units are affordable and pro quality!!!!
Just saying...

[matt thomas]

Originally Posted by DR Music

Black Lion Audio mods are amazing!! Regardless of what people say!!! Check it out the converters are 1st class on their mods, they also have the Autuer and a 312 clone. All these units are affordable and pro quality!!!!
Just saying...

I'm guessing the OP already chose what he wanted, about 5 years ago..

matt