Acoustics question : Snow studio needs no bass trapping?

[Marky]

Well if you live in the North East USA, you've just had your first big dumping of snow this season.

My girlfriend (who I constantly ramble on to about my music / audio) started musing this afternoon on her way home from work about how snow might be a good bass trap since the heavy snow we've had here today is really densely packed. It must have decent absorption properties since it always dampens the general environmental sound when snow is everywhere.

And thinking about it, anyone who's every built themselves an igloo as a kid (or maybe you live in one ) will know that inside igloo's always have that dead sound.

So.. this is obviously hypothetical.. if I built a snow-studio every year, would I need bass-trapping? And how good do you reckon good densely-packed snow is anyway? (There's plenty of mass in it as I nearly killed myself digging my car out 10 mins ago)

[Durv]

no idea about your question.......but i love how quiet it is when its snowing!
Does one need "bass trapping" for open air recording btw?

Durv

[DC11]

This is similar to a friend of mine that wanted to try and build cables with water.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Durv

no idea about your question.......but i love how quiet it is when its snowing!
Does one need "bass trapping" for open air recording btw?

Durv

"Does one need "bass trapping" for open air recording btw?"

No because there would be no reflections coming back to you..

Marky,

Darn guy you just stoled our plans!! We have been testing the new GIK Chilled bass trap, but it keeps melting!! We put a cornpipe, coal and top hat on it which did seem to help it come to life but it just kept melting.

Glenn

[Durv]

Originally Posted by DC11

This is similar to a friend of mine that wanted to try and build cables with water.

KEN SCHALK!!!
j/k haahah!


Durv

[Marky]

Originally Posted by myfipie

"
Marky,

Darn guy you just stoled our plans!! We have been testing the new GIK Chilled bass trap, but it keeps melting!! We put a cornpipe, coal and top hat on it which did seem to help it come to life but it just kept melting.

Glenn

Frosty, the Bass Trap!

Heh, I'd love to see your mounting instructions for that thing!

[cdog]

You're totally insane, and yet 100% correct my spidey sense tells me.

I think an igloo studio would need some HF absorbtion, ice is kinda bright sounding.

[Ethan Winer]

Marky,

> snow might be a good bass trap since the heavy snow we've had here today is really densely packed. <

Sorry, no, snow will do nothing useful. Bass traps work on one of two principles: 1) Something (a membrane, air in a cavity) vibrates in sympathy with the sound waves, or 2) sound waves pass through a porous material like rigid fiberglass and friction converts the sound energy into heat. So in this regard a bunch of snow is about effective as a rock because it's not porous and it doesn't vibrate.

--Ethan

[JTR]

Snow is somewhat porous - it certainly dampens some soundwaves; it's quiet in the winter woods

Biggest problem with a snow-studio would probly be that incessant urge to record House versions of the Hockey Night In Canada theme, or Abba covers.

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by JTR

Snow is somewhat porous - it certainly dampens some soundwaves; it's quiet in the winter woods

Biggest problem with a snow-studio would probly be that incessant urge to record House versions of the Hockey Night In Canada theme, or Abba covers.

Light, fluffy new snow is definitely porous and a pretty good absorber. As it settles, it quickly becomes less effective. The big problem making a studio wall with snow is that when you pack it tightly enough to become a wall that will hold itself up, it becomes inneffective at absorbing. And if you keep it warm inside, you'll soon get a little surface that melts and refreezes, hence a hard, crusty, reflective surface.

[Ethan Winer]

Jay,

> Light, fluffy new snow is definitely porous and a pretty good absorber. As it settles, it quickly becomes less effective. <

Thanks for clarifying, and of course I agree with that. So I guess using an igloo is out, eh?

--Ethan

[biggator6]

Other potential benefits of an igloo studio

1. you can overclock that DAW without worrying about cooling the CPU
2. no more running for bottled water for the high-maintenance vocalist
3. really cheap HVAC bills (well, at least AC)
4. instead of air-hockey for the lounge area.. you can have real hockey
5. guaranteed 'cool' vibe to the studio
6. you can clear out the gear and use it as a set for an 80's newwave video

and now I'm just getting silly.
"-)

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

> Light, fluffy new snow is definitely porous and a pretty good absorber. As it settles, it quickly becomes less effective. <

Thanks for clarifying, and of course I agree with that. So I guess using an igloo is out, eh?

Oooh, but the dome shape would be so interesting for monitoring...

[Ethan Winer]

Jay,

> the dome shape would be so interesting for monitoring <

Maybe not so interesting. A concave surface focuses all the sound to the area under the curve's center, and that's the opposite of diffusion. You could avoid that problem by placing absorption over much of the ceiling. And for absorption you'd use ...

... lightly packed snow, of course!



--Ethan

[Berolzheimer]

I thought that "snow in the studio" thing was kind of over in the 80's.

[jayfrigo]

> Oooh, but the dome shape would be so interesting for monitoring...<

Maybe not so interesting. A concave surface focuses all the sound to the area under the curve's center, and that's the opposite of diffusion.

Focusing one might say... and we're always told that having focus is a good thing!

Anybody who doesn't recognize sarcasm, raise your hand...

[borau]

[cdog]

you gotta be kidding me..... must be some crazy canadians.

[borau]

Well, thats nothing.



http://www.panograf.com/kunder/icehotel/

Click on globe teather rock consert

[genericperson]

where you guys get these pictures is beyond me!

[borau]

Better, I found a sample from the recording aswell!

Only Ice instruments, soon to be heard on a radio station near you.....not.

Here is the sample

[borau]

And regarding the absorption part.

I don't think Ethan or Jay has spent nearly enough time in snowy enviroments, or igloos.

Snow is a god damn perfect absorber, the inside of the kind of caves that children build from snow sounds extremely good, I've always wanted to record in such an enviroment.

In the mountains wintertime.......cross country skiing.... my definiton of perfect sound, no kidding.

But very unpractical.

[Berolzheimer]

Originally Posted by borau

Better, I found a sample from the recording aswell!

Only Ice instruments, soon to be heard on a radio station near you.....not.

Here is the sample

Thanks! I wonder if that low sound is one of the ice instruments.

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by borau

And regarding the absorption part.

I don't think Ethan or Jay has spent nearly enough time in snowy enviroments, or igloos.

Snow is a god damn perfect absorber, the inside of the kind of caves that children build from snow sounds extremely good, I've always wanted to record in such an enviroment.

In the mountains wintertime.......cross country skiing.... my definiton of perfect sound, no kidding.

But very unpractical.

I've spent many hours building and occupying such fortresses and relaxing in snowy environs. Very peaceful indeed. However, as I said, it's great in the beginning, but changes pretty quickly. After it warms, settles, gets denser, and re-hardens, it becomes reflective. Also, the size of the typical snow fort doesn't exactly promote long reverb times. If you were to enclose a 3000 cubic foot space with snow walls, you may get a better feel for its acoustic properties.

I guess in very cold and dry places it may stay fluffly longer. I think making it into walls and having temps above freezing inside (body heat will be contained) promoting glazing will render it ineffective before you get your record finished. It would be easy to build a generally diffuse surface, however! But yeah, cold fingers don't facilitate virtuosity. Not too practical regardless. And there's still the problem of that igloo dome... (d'oh!)

I wonder if anybody has done measurements on the absorption coefficients of different types of snow? Might be a master's thesis in there somewhere... U of A Fairbanks would probably go for it. ;-)

All this talk has me wanting to go out and play in the snow.

[Drumsound]

I love t go outside and stand in the snow, while its coming down or right after. I love how quiet it is and how localized all the things you do hear are. For me it's one of life's perfect gifts. I don't know if I could live where it doesn't snow.

[Glenn Kuras]

>I wonder if anybody has done measurements on the absorption coefficients of different types of snow? Might be a master's thesis in there somewhere... U of A Fairbanks would probably go for it. ;-)<

We tried it but for some reason the test blast turned it to water!! I think that was the reason or maybe it was because it was above 32 degrees in the room.

>I thought that "snow in the studio" thing was kind of over in the 80's.<



Someone said that Ethen did not know about snow??? Ethan take a picture of your front lawn and show these guys your FOOT of snow.. If you would not mind spend all day today and build a igloo and take some tests. We need to clear this up. ha ha ha

Glenn

[borau]

Ahhh.... now I'm beginning to see where we might disagree

You are talking about talking a few feets of snow and building something up,
I am talking about, in very cold and dry enviroments, actually excavating caves in the snow, I am talking 10-12 feets of snow.

So I guess, Jay, that's the difference in where we're comming from.
But as spring closes in, and temperatures start to vary around the freezing point, the walls and such hardens as Jay points out, (not to mention the neighbourhoods cats having used it as a place too pee for a few months) makes the sound change quite a bit to the worse.

[max cooper]

A cool drum recording technique is to record the kit in an outdoor area where you don't have the sound of a room so that you really have a variety of options later.

[olli]

Originally Posted by borau

Better, I found a sample from the recording aswell!

Only Ice instruments, soon to be heard on a radio station near you.....not.

Here is the sample

I have the cd. It´s Terje Isungset: Iceman Is. There´s ice trumpets among other chilly things. Heard they were hard to play, melting at the mouthpiece. One can hear more saliva noises than with regular trumpets.
There´s also conventional instruments added.
As cd cover says, all ice instruments and studio buildings are now somewhere in the North Sea.

[Jeff16years]

doesn't shiver induce jitter?