"don't play the first thing that comes into your head: play the second." -

[Renie]

I think Miles Davis said that.

You could swap 'play' for 'do' for mixing, engineering and production.

In your experience is the second better than the first?

[littledog]

Don't remember that one, although as a life-long improvising musician, i always was of the opinion that the ultimate level of spontaneous creativity was more a zen thing - don't be consciously thinking of anything at all. rather just subordinate all conscious thought to becoming part of the musical flow.

the one i like from miles is when he would tell his keyboard players "I don't want to hear you playing anything when I'm playing. Just play in between..." (Not an exact quote - just my remembrance.)

now THAT concept of creating musical space is certainly one that is applicable to us as engineers...

[BevvyB]

Personally, when it comes to composing, more often than not the first thing that springs to mind is the most immediately appealing or 'fresh', even though at first glance it can appear 'too obvious'...but then again, you can spend days trying to find something that obvious..why not just use the freshest obvious idea?

When it comes to sitting 'out there' doing takes...well, the Zen thing holds true. I'm not sure when I'm going into 'the zone', but when I arrive if the machine doesn't keep rolling till it runs out then that's it. Sometime's it happens straight off. Sometimes it takes a while. Usually it takes as long as it takes to become one with the music. Then I forget what I'm doing and everything else vanishes. You get a magic five minutes, and then start refining it (which isn't the zone bit, its crafting your inspiration)

Of course, the more time you spend per day in the zone the easier it is to get back into it I find

[musicalhair]

As a take on what Littledog said, if we're "thinking" about what we're playing then maybe the second thing would be better because it might be a refinement of a rough idea that ends up fitting better, like the way you and really think through a move or plan in chess.

But, the best moments for me playing are way beyond thinking. Like "being in the zone" or "tapping into the moment" and all the other cliches, but they are true. This is true not only of improvising but playing classical guitar pieces, at some point you want to get beyond actively thinking about it, but kinda simply being aware of the tune and where you are and what your doing.

Jeff Baxter's solo on "My Old School" by Steely Dan was supposedly completely off the cuff, he was more checking out what his new pickups were like as he ran through the tune for the first time. Man, I gotta get me a pair of those pickups .

[Roland]

I worked with Herbie Flowers, he (and I agree with him) always says

"The first take is the best one, failing that the second. If you need a third, it will do, don't even bother doing a fourth, move onto something else."

The more I work in this business, the more I am convinced that he's right.


Regards


Roland

[Jax]

Cool, something worth talking about again. There's only so much gear banter I can take. I'm tapped out and overrun by newbies. Not to mention having no time and being overworked... (grumble grumble)

For me, the first time an idea surfaces feels the freshest. Refinement follows that and shapes the idea into what (hopefully) it was meant to be. Most of the time when I'm playing drums, keys, or bass, my partner in musical crime is there playing either guitar, bass or keys (usually not playing the same instrument I'm playing) so the experience is influenced and at least partially shaped by the shared collective input. All improv, every time unless we're working on an older idea. These sessions are almost always recorded, and on listening back, I'll hear the first emergence of an idea, and then a lot of work following that to craft the idea into a better version of itself. Still, it is often very difficult to recapture the feeling of the first idea in successive approaches.

Something about the vibe and energy in the room during the first shot is almost impossible to recreate. But that's why I record everything that goes down. I'm planning to edit the first takes of improv'd little parts that worked into our finished material. It won't sound as good as a recordng I've stopped and taken the time to do right (as opposed to capturing the ideas without as much concern for sound quality), but it will be an attempt to mix in the element of freshness.

Totally off topic: Had a dream last night where I went to the UK with the buddy mentioned above. When I opened my guitar case, there was a very fancy looking strat laying atop my other guitar. The finsh was a deep grain stain on the body, with a 'Swamp Thing' colored pickguard, including dark algae sort of pearlescent swirls. The volume and tone knobs were clear with gold rings at the bottom and the guitar screamed to be played. The headstock and all the hardware was black. Later, I found out we were there on tour, and Jules' studio was pushing us as a UK band, and we were going to record in his studio.

What does it mean, doc?

[stuntmixer]

There is no rule to this except there is no rule to this. It's a slippery fish, this inspiration. Generally I find my instincts are going to point me in the right direction if not take me straight there. Trusting them allows for that freshness.

I used to go to jazz workshops in NYC and one day a brilliant older guitarist, Ted Dunbar, told me how even the greats can't live in a inspired creative place all the time. Even for them it's "20 percent inspiration, 80 percent perspiration. Nobody can stay there," he said "you have to know how to wait for it and what to do 'till it comes back."

What that meant to me was knowing how to grab it when it's there and how not to try and force it when it's not, because it's probably close by and you'll only scare it away.

I like what Bevvy said a lot "Of course, the more time you spend per day in the zone the easier it is to get back into it I find"

I've always seen true inspiration as a clearing in a dense forest that you one day stumble into. Next time you try to find it you get lost, hack endlessly through the brush and eventually come across it. The more you go tere the better the path gets worn untill, hopefully someday you can find it in the dark.

[BevvyB]

I like the path analogy.

It's kind of also like 'detaching', which in this age of computer screens and mouse pointers is harder to do than it's ever been.

However, I know when I've been really on a roll when I'm mixing/composing/whatever because in those sessions I can never remember being anywhere near Logic or my Mac. Those are the times the vehicle becomes transparent and you are only left with the trip. I like those.

I'm starting to have fantasies about letting tapes roll while I stare into space...I wonder if there's some kind of way to give Pro Tools/Logic a 'screensaver' mode whereby when you press play the screen goes blank except for the transport....

[littledog]

Originally posted by BevvyB

I'm starting to have fantasies about letting tapes roll while I stare into space...I wonder if there's some kind of way to give Pro Tools/Logic a 'screensaver' mode whereby when you press play the screen goes blank except for the transport....

You can get almost there pretty easily in Pro Tools. Just use the "windowshade" click box to collapse all the windows to little bars. Then you can even move them almost off the screen if you really want "empty" real estate.

[joeq]

I find with performing, the first take is usually the best, unless it has some unforgivable badness or the band is underrehearsed and then it is the second.

With mixing however I think the mixes get better with every pass - until they don't. Most of the time my best mix is my next to last one.


When overdubbing drums there are some occasions where I am trying to bang out something without success and then somewhere around take 16 it suddenly clicks. But I suppose I could get the same result with less pain by going home and practicing and coming back the next day.

[Renie]

It's interesting.

I wonder if the answer is in deep honesty; whether the first thing is really "happening" or whether it's a well worn path that could do with a fresh twist.

It often is the first thing and it must be caught or it's slips away but sometimes it's brave to push on.

The writer Philip Pullman was discussing children's creativity in a newspaper article recently. He was highlighting the current focus in British schools on teamwork and fast production in creative tasks....like 'write a story on the tree in the schoolyard in 10 mins'...he described the valuable solitary nature of certain kinds and stages of creative work.

He likened it to going out to fish in a boat at night, you can't see, and you don't know where the fish are, but you gradually learn to navigate to the places you think they might be, because they came to you somewhere thereabouts before, and you learn to be patient and to come home empty handed sometimes.

I loved the description.

The other point I'm currently questioning is this dominant idea that it's good to be there doing the work as often and for as long as possible- I'm thinking more about preparing for my journeys and feeding my inspiration in a variety of other ways- having more to bring to the music, rather than thinking I must be constantly there in it.

[Renie]

Originally posted by joeq


With mixing however I think the mixes get better with every pass - until they don't. Most of the time my best mix is my next to last one.

Madonna told William Orbit "Don't gild the lilly"...
I confess sometimes I do. Mixes actually can lose some of their wildness as the passes fly by. I'm working on this...

[stuntmixer]

yes, preparation plus inspiration equals creativity.

You have to be there, ass in chair, pen in hand, guitar on shoulder, when lightning strikes or it'll fly right by you. The work teaches you how to translate it in to sound. The more your ass is in the chair the more likely you'll be there when you get hit.

A great songwriter friend once told of a sign over his mentor's desk that read :Today is a great day to write a bad song.

I didn't get it, then I got it. Be there in the chair, remain in the chair with pen in hand even if inspiration isn't finding you right now, it will. Finish the damn thing even if you don't like it anymore. Since we have to write x number of bad songs to get to the great one, finish the bad one. If you don't, it will still be in the way of the great one. hmmmm distractions abound

[Absolute]

Many times the first thing that comes to your mind is something that you've heard before--it sounds comfortable--like it belongs---and you wind up with unoriginal stuff

[BevvyB]

Most often the first thing that comes to my mind is something that sounds like a few other things but I got it wrong, rendering it original.

If we were popping entirely original thoughts off left right and centre I think we may have left our bodies behind by now and floated off somewhere more intellectual.

[max cooper]

I'm starting to have fantasies about letting tapes roll while I stare into space...I wonder if there's some kind of way to give Pro Tools/Logic a 'screensaver' mode whereby when you press play the screen goes blank except for the transport....

o/t a little, but I've emailed Digi about making it possible to dim the virtual "control room" lights, so I can just stare at the level meters.

fat chance, huh?

[Sounds Great]

Originally posted by max cooper
o/t a little, but I've emailed Digi about making it possible to dim the virtual "control room" lights, so I can just stare at the level meters.

fat chance, huh?

You could always take a piece of black paper, a sissors, and a piece of tape...

[RKrizman]

Originally posted by littledog


the one i like from miles is when he would tell his keyboard players "I don't want to hear you playing anything when I'm playing. Just play in between..." (Not an exact quote - just my remembrance.)

Here's the story I heard. One of Miles' keyboard players interrupted him in rehearsal once saying "Miles, Miles, I hear this great part", .......to which he replied, "Well if you already hear it, you don't have to play it".

-R