Vocal Compression: In the box vs hardware units

[Vogon]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

I don't doubt that.

Oh please.
I'll ignore that in light of what's being revealed about your understanding.
Listen to Mr Brown.

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by Vogon

Oh please.
I'll ignore that in light of what's being revealed about your understanding.
Listen to Mr Brown.

Take me to school you big ladyboy.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

Take me to school you big ladyboy.

Why did you delete your post?

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

Take me to school you big ladyboy.

If you are so daft to think that "speed of sound" and "latency" are related, then you deserve all the abuse you get.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

If you are so daft to think that "speed of sound" and "latency" are related, then you deserve all the abuse you get.

You don't believe they are related at all?

The concepts are pretty similar.

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by Mike Brown

Because all recording software delays your signal by at least a short amount of time and its not a problem. Whats a few samples more on already a couple ms on professional workstations?

Even hardware components delay your signal by a short amount of time...

Certain hardware can slow your voltages down as far as 60% of the speed of light!

Our brain isn't made to process timing and musical information fast enough for that amount of total signal delay to become bothersome. Our brains are actually very forgiving in that respect.

If we had trouble with these extremely small latencies we would not be able to play music together in the same room! The amount of time it takes for the sound to get from a snare drum into a DAW and out the speakers is similar to the amount of time it takes for the sound to get to the bass player a few feet away.

God forbid you stand on the other side of a small room!

That's fine.
A Mic through a DAW works OK.

Try 18 or 30 or 50 mics through a DAW. Those "extremely small latencies" become rather a big problem, even before you press record.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

That's fine.
A Mic through a DAW works OK.

Try 18 or 30 or 50 mics through a DAW. Those "extremely small latencies" become rather a big problem, even before you press record.

How so?

I do micing like that pretty often...

Its not like the latency is compounded.

[digitrax]

Whatever the differences between hardware and software may be, I would argue this:
There is more difference between plugs and steel on comps than any other product category - especially on the way in.
Now, whether you prefer that difference (I do!) is a matter of taste.

Personally, I've been digging the Shadow Hills Dual Vandergraph in a 500 series comp (especially on drum bus, but vox too) and have also used 525's to great effect.

I'd really like to hear the new Pendulum OCL-500 - bet that thing'll kill on vocals! (at least, if it's even in the same league as the OCL-2 or the Quartet's comp - anyone heard it yet??).
You might give Greg a call and see if he'll lend you one to try out.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

That's why you are a "Pro Tools Expert" rather than a working engineer.

I mic lots of sessions with 18+ mics and that makes me a PT Expert instead of a working engineer?

LMAO.

Care to actually engage in a real discussion instead of tossing around personal insults?

I have sessions or FOH gigs almost every day... if you would like a recent discography I can supply one.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by digitrax

Whatever the differences between hardware and software may be, I would argue this:
There is more difference between plugs and steel on comps than any other product category.
Now, whether you prefer that difference (I do!) is a matter of taste.

Personally, I've been digging the Shadow Hills Dual Vandergraph in a 500 series comp (especially on drum bus, but vox too) and have also used 525's to great effect.

I'd really like to hear the new Pendulum OCL-500 on vox - bet that thing'll kill (at least, if it's even in the same league as the OCL-2 or the Quartet's comp). You might give Greg a call and see if he'll lend you one to try out.

All the shadow hills stuff is nice!

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by Mike Brown

LMAO.

Care to actually engage in a real discussion instead of tossing around personal insults?

I have sessions or FOH gigs almost every day... if you would like a recent discography I can supply one.

Yeah, I really give a **** who you are.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

Yeah, I really give a **** who you are.

Apparently you do care, because you just tried to label me as "not a working engineer".

Seriously, why are you upset?

Please clarify your statement as to why the amount of microphones would have an impact on latency.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by dynamike

Can you guys expand on the type of plugs and settings you would use when stacking multiple comps on a lead vocal? This is new to me.

I track with a Distressor and am very happy doing so. I'll occasionally follow with an RVox or RennComp if I see fit, but 3 comps on one vocal? Doesn't it render the track lifeless with no dynamics?

Just saw this! Sorry!

Typically I find that extreme amounts of gain reduction on plugins make it sound kind of... grainy for lack of a better word.

So what I will do is place 2 compressors in series (in a mix! not while tracking...) and set each to do roughly 5 dB of gain reduction...

Sometimes I set one harder than the other.... sometimes not... all depends on the situation.

Season to taste. thumbsup

Honestly I haven't noticed this with lots of the newer compressor plugins.

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by Mike Brown

I mic lots of sessions with 18+ mics and that makes me a PT Expert instead of a working engineer?

LMAO.

Care to actually engage in a real discussion instead of tossing around personal insults?

I have sessions or FOH gigs almost every day... if you would like a recent discography I can supply one.

I've never seen an actual real engineer track through plug-ins. Crazy old fkrs and their analogue witchcraft ways

[Shy]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

I've never seen an actual real engineer track through plug-ins. Crazy old fkrs and their analogue witchcraft ways

Look, you've obviously seen very little in your life, so can you stop telling people they're not "real engineers"?

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by Shy

Look, you've obviously seen very little in your life, so can you stop telling people they're not "real engineers"?

Yeah sorry Shy, you got me. I'm actually 14 years old and everyone I know works in pork agriculture. I don't even own a compoooter.

I'll certainly stop telling people they're "not real engineers" after that dressing down.

Jeez, do I feel stupid after all that "You're not a real engineer" stuff I said.

[MarkRB]

In the cold light of day.

I'm Sorry, I am an argumentative dick when the sun goes down! I Apologise to anyone I offended or tried to offend in this thread.

Apart from Vogon.

Let's pick this up at a later date when we can talk like adults about multi-mic phase relationships, plug-in latencies and the inherent hazards, in a real world situation..

[DaVinci]

Originally Posted by Mike Brown

But what if I am tracking with plugins I don't own or the mix engineer doesn't own?

Well then record it!

That would be a valid reason. So would avoiding maxing out the cpu at mixdown on a leaner system.

I was very specific, however, in saying that I am only talking about ITB plugs within the host system post A/D assuming no further digital conversions.

Llet's not twist what's being said here, so I will say it in one sentence to avoid further confusion.









If you have already digitized audio which will not be downconverted until mixdown, and you are recording and mixing on a host system who's ITB plugs can be applied (identically) either destructively on tracking, or in the monitor path remaining non-destructive until mixdown, then as long as you have the processing power to use all necessary instances on mixdown, there is NO REASON to track destructively through them.








You can make up a reason, if you like... "I just like doing it that way" or "It makes me feel brave" if you like... but there is no real world upside.

There is, however, a very real possibility of a serious and costly downside. If you've done it a hundred times with no ill effects, good for you... but it will only take one time of realizing you really shouldn't have needed to retrack the entire session before you kick your own a$$ for causing a completely unnecessary problem. I have friends who never back anything up, and their logic sounds the same... I know my system, I know what I'm doing, etc... One mistake could set them back by a month, but they just prefer the feeling of doing it their way. More power to them... but I hope they're not giving the sort of reckless advice I see on here.

And no, it is NOT just like doing it in the analog world. There is a list of completely valid reasons for doing it in the analog world that do not apply at all to the above scenereo. Not one, not two, but a LIST of completely valid reasons vs. ZERO valid reasons... not the same thing at all.

[msm07]

skimmed through the replies...science aside... Sound wise when using compressors on lead vocals ive always thought that outboard adds compression without the essy problem i get from a lot of ITB compressors. I get "body" from the outboard gear. it might be all in the mind... but it works for me.

I compared a uad la2a to the hardware and uad 1176 to the hardware and they all had this issue. The more you push the software the more problems arise...takes longer for hardware to get essy IMO

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by CallMeAl

but a LIST of completely valid reasons vs. ZERO valid reasons... not the same thing at all.

Lets agree to disagree! thumbsup

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by msm07

skimmed through the replies...science aside... Sound wise when using compressors on lead vocals ive always thought that outboard adds compression without the essy problem i get from a lot of ITB compressors. I get "body" from the outboard gear. it might be all in the mind... but it works for me.

I compared a uad la2a to the hardware and uad 1176 to the hardware and they all had this issue. The more you push the software the more problems arise...takes longer for hardware to get essy IMO

All good points.
But I don't like generalities some people make.

Special the newer plug ins are very usable.

If some says you cant do it with plug ins I say this is a generality which is right to him. Some plug ins work very well in this or another situation it all depends on taste in the end.

[teo]

Originally Posted by CallMeAl

No, it's always true.

If AT is on the monitor path, then you are NOT tracking through it, and your only issue is latency.

That's what I meant. And I thought Konkaos meant the same...

[msm07]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

All good points.
But I don't like generalities some people make.

Special the newer plug ins are very usable.

If some says you cant do it with plug ins I say this is a generality which is right to him. Some plug ins work very well in this or another situation it all depends on taste in the end.

I'm generalising on a "if I had to" basis. I stand by the cl1b, la2a, 1176 - all of which are ITB versions. But you CAN push the hardware versions a bit more IMO.

Last night I patched in a pultec (hardware) then matched it as well as I could with the UAD version and we chose the plugin.

I prefer the software versions as recalls are a problem of the past... The sound difference isn't big enough for me. I get good results with software

[keano]

Does anyone record vocals using a compressor on the insert while tracking?

[Joseph Egan]

I'm a big fan of the MCDSP M2000 multiband compressor plugin. It does a reasonable job as a compressor, but a fantastic job at automated vocal shaping. I can eliminate offensive sounds, plosives, glottal consonants, resonances, do timbre shaping with pin point accuracy. Hardware has it's mojo, but software is a definite complement. From the MCDSP ITB I usually go to a RNC for additional smoothing or a Distressor or Purple MC77 for attitude the ITB can't provide.

[keano]

check this out. Give me your opinion. vocals only compressed here

Guess compressor: MC77 - 1176 - Dragon - UAD 1176 - Distressor

[Musiclab]

My usual tracking vocal chain is either an ADL 600 into a tubetech CL1b or a Crane Sone Trakker, sometimes I'll use an API for the mic pre. In the mix it's usually a Dane Optical DeEsser into an Oram Al Schmitt GMS for the compressor and EQ. Either that or either the Trakker or Cl1b into ISA 110 instead of the Oram. But the Oram works 99% of time