Best mixing headphones!

[rcb4t2]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

That's one of things that drove me to the Denons, as well as neutrality and transparency across the board. Most cans have a big broad hump in the lower mids/upper bass, and then roll off in the low bass. The Denons have a slight slow steady rise peaking in the very low bass before rolling off. This rise compensates for the lack of bass feel that you get from full range speakers in a room. They are also much cleaner in the bass than any other cans I've tried. Once you calibrate yourself to it, you can indeed get an accurate take on the bass with the Denons. As you said in your other post, calibrating yourself to what you know is the key, regardless.

Yeah fair enough... to be fair, too, I've never used the super expensive cans (grado, etc). What drives me crazy is that the low-end roll off is often so severe that you just can't hear anything down there... you can compensate for "less" bass, but if you can't hear it at all there's nothing you can do. FWIW I think the headphone amp should *not* be overlooked here. If you're willing to spend $500 on a pair of HP to use with a sub-par amp then you're shooting yourself in the foot from the get-go. Recently I was fooling around with headphones (humble sennheiser hd280 pro's, although I like them a lot) plugged into my mac's headphone output vs. through a rosetta into a nice Rane hp amp. Now, of course, the rosetta probably had a good amount to do with it, but the bass response was vastly superior using the Rane. I think it's a great buy, btw, I got mine for about $150 on eBay, "hc6" six channels with individual stereo mixes and two outputs. Very cool - I wanted to suggest it for folks suffering with hp4's and the like... rambling now...

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by rcb4t2

What drives me crazy is that the low-end roll off is often so severe that you just can't hear anything down there... you can compensate for "less" bass, but if you can't hear it at all there's nothing you can do.

exactly. It's got to be there at all, and be appropriately flat, and be clean.

Originally Posted by rcb4t2

FWIW I think the headphone amp should *not* be overlooked here. If you're willing to spend $500 on a pair of HP to use with a sub-par amp then you're shooting yourself in the foot from the get-go. Recently I was fooling around with headphones (humble sennheiser hd280 pro's, although I like them a lot) plugged into my mac's headphone output vs. through a rosetta into a nice Rane hp amp. Now, of course, the rosetta probably had a good amount to do with it, but the bass response was vastly superior using the Rane. I think it's a great buy, btw, I got mine for about $150 on eBay, "hc6" six channels with individual stereo mixes and two outputs. Very cool - I wanted to suggest it for folks suffering with hp4's and the like... rambling now...

right on. As usual, all aspects effecting monitoring are critical. The Heed CanAmp is my current fave for serious but affordable single channel headphone amp.

[AntillesSound]

I've been having TREMENDOUS results with the Beyer DT770 Pros. I was doing a mix down at a studio last week that I had never worked in before. I spent most of my time on their Dyn BM15s [which I'm really used to], but wanted to reference on the Beyers as well. Doing so resulted in some of the quickest turnarounds on mixes I've done in foreign studios. Their imaging is amazing and the low end feels pretty right. I give them a big thumbsupthumbsup.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by AntillesSound

I've been having TREMENDOUS results with the Beyer DT770 Pros. I was doing a mix down at a studio last week that I had never worked in before. I spent most of my time on their Dyn BM15s [which I'm really used to], but wanted to reference on the Beyers as well. Doing so resulted in some of the quickest turnarounds on mixes I've done in foreign studios. Their imaging is amazing and the low end feels pretty right. I give them a big thumbsupthumbsup.

That's great they're working so well for you. They do have a hump around 100Hz, with a suck out around 60Hz where a lot of speakers have a peak, and back up below that. So the low bass is not missing in action, but the hump and the suck out are going to be misleading. They're also down significantly in the presence zone rising to a big peak around 10k. That part of it is somewhat appropriate to make up for the ears sensitivity issues, but it's an exaggerated version of what it should be. Bottom line, though, is if it works for you...

[D K]

DT 880 Pro's - These things are stunning to me!

[husky band]

I have an old pr of beyerdynamics DT801's that do well for me.

[mattg082]

Ath m-50's are all you need! Great price awesome quality. They are the sm7b of headphones around here ha.

[reddirt]

I promised myself that I'd never reply to any more ATH M50 recommendations...... but as much as it's all subjective I have to say that the ATH M50s are too kind in the mids and don't truly say what's happening there and the bottom end while impressive is too big, so for mixing no, but for tracking OK; also they generally cause a fair amount of sweating so not good for long periods.
I wanted to like them but they aren't the duck's nuts as many would have you believe IMO. -YMMV though.

Sorry I actually have nothing to recommend at this time as my 30 yr old Sennheiser HD420s finally died recently; not what you'd call flattering but great for important decisions and that's what IMO you need.

Cheers, Ross

[CKenterpro]

Alittle off topic but whats the best method or what methods do you prefer to burn in headphones. Also what would be a good choice for amplification. I can't spend too much more maybe around 100-200 for a decent model.

By the way I decided to go with the Denon ah-d7000 i'll let you all know how they stand.

[AYM]

AT Pro700

[Graal]

AKG K701/K702

Beyerdinamic DT990 Pro

Sony MDR3000 (if you can still find a pair).

Cheers.

[vernier]

K240 is good for mixing, but I've abandoned them as they last a matter of weeks. Sony lowest price headphones is all I use now ..they break in a matter of weeks or days but are much cheaper to replace.

[John Willett]

When it comes down to mixing on headphones - the most popular seem to be the HD 600, HD 650 and K701 with about equal number of adherants to each.

Be aware, though, that the K701 especially seem to need a lot of burning in - I am told about 500 hours is normal (0VU has these and he'll either confirm or correct).

Personally I have moved up to the HD 800 for this - but those are £1,000 / $1,400.

This Sound on Sound article also makes interesting reading: "Mixing on Headphones".

[sonicjosh]

that sucks about your pair of k240's, i think everyone gets a bad unit every now and again, I've had mine for almost 4 years now. I also do realize that my first point was a bit over exaggerated, I do plan on getting some bass traps (which don't really cost that much especially DIY) and upgrading my monitors but I'm in the middle of a sublet right now so I'm waiting until i have a more permanent place to set up.

[vernier]

Originally Posted by sonicjosh

that sucks about your pair of k240's, i think everyone gets a bad unit every now and again, I've had mine for almost 4 years now. I also do realize that my first point was a bit over exaggerated, I do plan on getting some bass traps (which don't really cost that much especially DIY) and upgrading my monitors but I'm in the middle of a sublet right now so I'm waiting until i have a more permanent place to set up.

Industrial MIL-SPEC version would be nice.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by CKenterpro

I know this has been discussed many times but I need a pair of headphones to do mixing on late at night since I don't have too much time during the day and can't turn the monitors on past 8pm.

I know mixing on headphones is taboo but I have too.

Also not to mention i'm having trouble hearing where my bass needs to sit. So cans with great bass detail and clarity is key. I'm mixing mostly rock/metal/modern rock/alternative.

My budget is 500-600$

I've been researching some cans out there these two i'm interested in:

Beyer DT880 32ohms
Ultrasone pro 2900 (anyone use these yet)

Already have the ATm50

If there are better phones out there please chime in.

First off, you can't mix on phones. Not properly. The perspective of the sound stage is off and the bass is never right.

If, however, you HAVE to mix on phones because you absolutely can't avoid it, the only phones that give even close to a proper soundstage perspective are made by Ultrasone.

[synthoid]

Originally Posted by CKenterpro

Alittle off topic but whats the best method or what methods do you prefer to burn in headphones.

you can just plug them into the headphone amp, set the volume to something moderate, and leave them aside while you work on the monitors for a few days (well, whatever burn-in period is recommended for those phones).

-synthoid

[Piedpiper]

Transient heavy music is best at loudish volumes. You can stuff a pillow between the cups if you wanna.

Nothing wrong with mixing on cans as long as you do a final check/tweek on monitors. Be prepared to make changes though.

[Don S]

I use 3 phones. M50, HD600 and an old AKG DF's. They all give different perspectives, and most of the time I use them in that order.

[enfiladed]

I mix a lot on hd650s. There are some real problems with them though, as mentioned they tend to make things sound deceptively 'pleasent'. If you get them be prepared to spend a lot of time getting to know them. They have a big bump centered around 100hz and then drop pretty significantly starting at 1.5k-2k. While this makes listening to them for extended periods of time better, but your mixes will get harsh pretty fast if you aren't mindful. I would say it took me at least 6 months of mixing with them and listening to my favorite records before I was happy with the results. It's just a matter of getting to know your headphones and checking on other things (car, iPod buds, laptop speakers etc.). All the suggestions are nice choices. Personally, I'd go with either the hd600/650, the Denon 5000. Also thumbs up on getting a decent headphone amp, it makes a lot of difference.

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by CKenterpro

My budget is 500-600$

I've been researching some cans out there these two i'm interested in:

Beyer DT880 32ohms
Ultrasone pro 2900 (anyone use these yet)

Already have the ATm50

If there are better phones out there please chime in.

All caveats about not mixing in cans aside, if that's the farthest you can stretch the budget, then I would say go for the Beyerdynamic DT880.

If you can find some additional funds, then you would do well to try the Sennheiser HD800. They're a step beyond anything else mentioned on this thread IMO.

[gravematter]

I absolutely love the DT880s. They've really helped in mixing, revealing details my old Tannoys don't. I use the 112db Redline Monitor plugin with them and often forget I'm wearing headphones!

[Alrod]

Here is another plug for the HD650. These headphones are rated at 300 ohm's. To get the full value out of them you really need a nice clean headphone amp to drive them. I have a Burson HA-160 which is outstanding. Simply plugging the HD 650 into a headphone jack not rated at 300ohm is a complete waste.

These headphones did require about a 150 hour break in period. The bass is tight and the mids as well as high's are basically 'what you hear is what you get'. Plus I love the detail that I hear that I wouldn't otherwise hear with the near fields.

As to the comments stating "you can't mix on phones. Not properly", I say that is pure rubbish. It is all a matter of getting used to them just like we get used to near fields. I have a nice set of Dynaudios, and and older pair of Events that I just love. But now that I am used to the HD650's I use them 80 - 90% of the time and my mixes have never sounded better. They translate real well on whatever I throw my mixes at.

The key is really getting to know them and cross referencing with other CD's.

[piscione]

I use Grado SR325 'phones. I'm surprised so few people mention the Grado stuff, I think they're the best headphones I have ever heard. They seem flat, transient response is excellent, I like the open design and they're relatively comfortable.

Randy

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by Alrod

"pure rubbish"

Hilarious!

Listen up good, folks. Extensive acoustic research spanning decades, along with the experience and considered opinions of a large number of accomplished and successful mix engineers can now be safely set aside ... because "Alrod" says so!

Gotta love this site!

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by piscione

I'm surprised so few people mention the Grado stuff, I think they're the best headphones I have ever heard. They seem flat, transient response is excellent, I like the open design and they're relatively comfortable.

Randy

People tend not to mention Grado because they have the reputation for being coloured.

Yes, they are hi-fi headphones that lots of people like because of how they present music to the listener.

But the sound is not the sound that you could trust for mastering.

I can understand why people like them for listening to music (though I don't); but for mixing and mastering you need headphones that tell you the truth.

I now use the HD 800 for this purpose (bit these are above the OP's budget).


Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[treewhispers]

Eartools RP-21 are very neutral, not coloring... and they are so cheap, it`s a steal. I think they translate mixes very well and I totally trust them.

[Alrod]

Originally Posted by DarkSky Media

Hilarious!

Listen up good, folks. Extensive acoustic research spanning decades, along with the experience and considered opinions of a large number of accomplished and successful mix engineers can now be safely set aside ... because "Alrod" says so!

Gotta love this site!

You missed my point entirely. I was stating that mixing can be successfully accomplished on headphones. I was not saying that other ways are not valid. No need to be an idiot about it.

All I know is that in my case I can mix just as well, if not better with headphones. Saved a lot of $$$ in the process too, and not once has anyone ever said "Dude, that sounds like it was mixed on headphones" So again, my comment "Pure Rubbish" was in answer to "Mixing can't properly be done on headphones" That IS pure rubbish!

[youngrob]

I use the beyerdynamic dt 770's and they translate really well.

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by Alrod

You missed my point entirely.

On the contrary, I understood you perfectly. tutt

You appear very certain of your position, yet it seems you have not looked into the matter in the slightest. There are a number of well understood and documented issues that make mixing solely on headphones a risky and hit-and-miss proposition. So far nobody has found a way to get around all of them - yet you are boldly claiming to have done so, while failing to provide any credible information to support your claim.

While it's hardly my job to do all the work for you, here is an abbreviated summary of the main issues that are widely understood to compromise the reliability of headphone-based mixing:

1. Headphones exaggerate the width of the stereo field, leading to mix decisions that may result in a narrowing of the perceived sound stage.
   
   
2. Headphones present the sound completely dry, thus de-emphasising ambience and room-halo effects, leading to mix decisions that are apt to deliver too "wet" a sound balance in many common listening situations.
   
   
3. Headphones modify spatial cues so that binaural effects are more difficult to discern and the perceived depth chatacteristics of sound (distance from the listener) is varied depending on the mic technique or phase relationships of the recording.
   
   
4. Headphone monitoring exaggerates level differences between center-panned and side-panned content (hard-panned signals sound 3-6dB quieter compared to center-panned signals on headphones than than they do on speakers).
   
   
5. In addition, most headphones (especially the closed-cup types) introduce resonances that tend to blur/obscure definition in some specific and narrow mid-range frequency ranges, which can lead to mixing some elements further forward or back than appropriate to achieve the desired degree of blend vs detail/intelligibility.

Each of these effects interacts with the others. Some of these effects can mitigate each other in some mixes, while exacerbating each other in other mixes, negating attempts to reliably compensate for them by "learning" to mix on headphones.

Some very elegant and sophisticated psychoacoustic mix processing systems have been devised in an attempt to obviate some of these issues. To date none have addressed them all simultaneously to the satisfaction of most professional mix engineers. As a result, headphones remain a useful adjunct to mixing (esp. as a cross-reference) but are generally understood to be unsuitable as a sole mix method.

That is, until your most impressive announcement on this very thread!

Originally Posted by Alrod

That IS pure rubbish!

So you said before. Indicating that you believe that you know better than some of the finest minds in the business throughout many decades.

To make such a radical assertion even moderately credible, you would need to explain how your headphone mix method makes itself immune to each of the five interactive problems I mentioned above - and possibly some others as well. Until you've been able to do that persuasively, I'm afraid your grand claims sound like...

Originally Posted by Alrod

pure rubbish!

Yes, that.