Low End Boom on the kick?

[Doublehelix]

I hate those threads where someone asks "How do I duplicate the guitar sound on xyz"? or "How can I get that magic vocal sound from abc?"...but...

I am looking to get more of a low end "thud" from the kick on a project I am working on... I have been asked to see if I can get the sound from AC/DC's "Night Prowler", which, I might add, does sound pretty awesome!

Most of the kick sounds I get nowadays seems to be more of that "basketball on the pavement" sound like with the AKG D112 or the Audix D6.

I do use the Yamaha Subkick to add some low end, but this is not the same thing.

Here are a few mics in my collection that are available for use:

Dynamics:
Audix D6
Audix I5
Audix D4 (and D2s)
AKG D112
AKG D12e
Yamaha Subkick
Sennheiser MD421
Senn MD441
Senn e906
Beyer M201
Shure SM7
Shure Beta 56
and of course SM57s, SM58s, etc...

LD Condensers:
Blue Bottle (B6, B7 and B4 capsules)
U87ai


Mic Pres:
API 512Cs (my normal kick pre)
Telefunken V672
Great River
Focusrite ISA
Soundtracs Topaz Console pres

Any ideas/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[oldswirlo]

Sounds more like the drum/tuning. Is the drum empty? Front head on or off? Hole in the front head?

I usually use a Beta 52 just inside the hole and an RCA 44 about 18" out and off axis a bit to aviod any wind. With a good drum that is well tuned hit by a good drummer I get great kick sounds often with no eq at all.

Using a pre with a fatty transformer always helps though.

Good luck.

[kats]

You should be able to get great "thud" from your d12e. But as the previous poster mentioned, sounds like your drum isn't tuned right.

Just an example, sometimes I have the skin on the kick side tuned really loose...almost papery, and tune the front skin for the tone I'm looking for. I use very very little dampening inside the kick and place a d12e on the oustside, give or take 6" but away from the soundhole (if there is one). Of course, every drum is different, so you'll have to experiment.

[Fletcher]

Harmonize it down an octave, filter at 50Hz, compress the snot out of it, add to original.

If you really want to get trick, use a transient designer to take the front off the harmonized addition.

[bigbone]

If you can't get a decent kick sound with a D112, the drums itself
is not well tune..............

And please don't start a war about tuning, it is personnal,but you should not
get a crappy kick sound out of a D112..........

[peeceebee]

A peavey kosmos subbass synthesizer can do some pretty wicked things to the bottom end...

[BradD]

Placement makes a big difference. If I want more snap, I'll put the D112 inside the kick and closer to the beater. Lately, in order to get a fatter rounder sound, I put the D112 back right at the sound hole. Makes a big difference.

[Froombosch]

For the low-end I build a patch for the eventide where I trigger an oscillator tuned at 72 Hz.

I can tune it, change release and attack and just dial a bit in.

I also like a beater mike combined with the NS-10 trick, better then the inside job with a D-112....


Harrie

[axisdreamer]

Try taking the front head off the bass drum and put your mic almost a foot back from the drum.I get a nice big sound that way on mine. It sounds like it could be a tuning problem on the beater head like others here have said.Also you could try a tube mic in addition to your closer mic back further to capture some low end.


Stace

[title]

another vote for a sure beta 52, on the hole (or even back a bit and covered), and then perhaps a sennheiser421 on the beater (in or out)....

[Messiah]

Originally Posted by Froombosch

For the low-end I build a patch for the eventide where I trigger an oscillator tuned at 72 Hz.

I can tune it, change release and attack and just dial a bit in.

Just like AC/DC did...


I agree with the comments about the tuning and setup of the kick itself.

Also, the EQ treatment tends to focus a touch higher than where we generally look.
Most kicks we hear on modern records nowadays have a shitload of low mids pulled out, big boosts between 60-100 and a dollop load of high mids 2-6K to make it 'kick and click'.

Not to be a smartass, but listen more closely to what you're trying to recreate and you'll find that it is very often not what it seems. A great part of the mixing skill is making listeners perceive certain things, like 'hugeness', etc, and having the skill NOT TO OVERDO IT should not be underestimated.

[Doublehelix]

Thanks for all the suggestions here folks, there are several here that I hadn't heard before.

And just to set the record straight, I never said I couldn't get a good kick sound, I just said that this particular project is requiring a deeper thud type of sound than I normally get, which is the more modern beater click sound. In fact, we are all quite happy with the sound we are getting on this particular project, we just need something different on one song.

I understand all about tuning issues as well, and this is an area I was going to start with, as well as moving the mic out further away from the beater head than I normally do, but these are all "standard" things, and still don't get me where I want to go. EQ is another area to explore, which I will certainly pursue as well.

I might even end up doing some sound replacement for this particular song, although I'd rather try to get it on my own, if for no other reason than to learn a new technique.

Thanks again...keep 'em coming folks!

[NathanEldred]

Try Aquarian heads...I was blown away by this one guy who came in a couple months ago to the studio. No front head (audience side) on the kick, so you'd think it would be dead and thuddy, right? Nope, it sounded huge - tight attack, but slow resonant decay in the low frequencies (even when he hit it hard), like nothing I've heard before. I think it was the super Kick II, but I'll have to verify with him. If it's not in the source...

[Bishbashbosh]

Super Kick 1 and 2 are both fab for big low end (with a little sustain..... the SK1 has a slightly longer decay, as it's single ply)

Don't know if that was sarcasm re the AC/DC triggering the Eventide..... But that technique was certainly used by Mutt Lange a great deal on both snare and kick on Back in Black. Quite a popular sound in the 80's generally for big rock drums.

Personally if I'm trying to get a bigger bottom end generally, I think a single kick mic probably won't do it. (especially not a d12 or d112 inside......) A mic inside for click (421, 112, 12e, 12, beta 52, whatever) and something outside (FET47 is my personal fave) I've also been using an NS10 speaker modded as a mic which sounds awesome. I've also used a second kick with no damping miked inside, and placed a couple of feet in front of the regular kick.
Another good trick, is to take an empty water-cooler bottle, and place that in front of the kick, with a decent SDC suspended inside... (I've used Josephson 42's with good results here, but YMMV).... roll off ALL the top end, and most of the mids, leaving just low end sustain, and blend to taste.....

[macr0w]

Sidechain a gate with your kick track, in front of a signal generator set at about 50hz.

[WidgetNinja]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

Try Aquarian heads...I was blown away by this one guy who came in a couple months ago to the studio.

I've been preaching these since like '99. They are the shit. I actually have different sound goals than the original poster, but they will for him too.

pulling a 180 though... For ULTIMATE metal, Super Kick II, tuned high (looser front than back, but back quite taught, Danmar plastic pads + DW pedals). Leave the shell totally empty or cut a piece of aualex to fit but no mute between the heads, about 18" wide. I leave it hollow.

If you have ever used a sample, you need to talk to your drummer, because this will blow it (and him) away. I use a D6 or E/V 868, but again this is the "Metal Patch" for the SuperKickII heads. Just sitting in the room though, you will freak out. You could seriously use a '57 and rock out (my friend has with his little portastudio). Just get it recorded. No tricks.

Sadly, Aquarian's tom heads blow goats and they don't have a quality endorser roster to really spread the word on their ones for kick.

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by macr0w

Sidechain a gate with your kick track, in front of a signal generator set at about 50hz.

I was just gonna say that! And the gate goes after the signal generator.

Two more tricks. Use a second bass drum as a resonator. Tune it real low and put it front of the drum so it just "woofs" when the kick is hit.

Tape a towel to the inside top of the bass drum so it hangs over the head. When the drum is hit, the towel will come off and then bounce back allowing the head to ring quickly.

[bigbone]

powerstrook 3 from REMO on your kick......tune low,,,wowooow.that
do it for me,,,,,

[Messiah]

Originally Posted by Doublehelix

I might even end up doing some sound replacement for this particular song, although I'd rather try to get it on my own, if for no other reason than to learn a new technique.

If you are going to go down this route you should consider recording the kick in question on it's own for the replacement sample(s).
I do this often and feel it keeps it sounding more natural than relying on others' samples.
The other thing I LOVE doing is using EVERY mic on your kit setup to record the kick (on separate tracks of course). This way, when it comes to the crunch of finding an element you feel you're missing, it becomes quite easy to tailor a sample to fit.
I've added 'kick samples' made up of just the floor tom and snare drum mics in the past with good results.

Sutton to think about...

[DirkB]

A deep low thud to me is a combination of impact, punch from a close mic in combination with an outside LDC to get some of the deep lowend but also some ambiance around the kick. A D112 paired with a U195 with the D112 phase adjusted with an IBP is what I would start with. Also, for the sustaining boom, I like to find a spot of the room where the lowend really sustains (mostly near corners) and use that to get some real boom on the kick and toms.

Good luck,
Dirk

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

Try Aquarian heads...I was blown away by this one guy who came in a couple months ago to the studio. No front head (audience side) on the kick, so you'd think it would be dead and thuddy, right? Nope, it sounded huge - tight attack, but slow resonant decay in the low frequencies (even when he hit it hard), like nothing I've heard before. I think it was the super Kick II, but I'll have to verify with him. If it's not in the source...

thumbsup
Yep I love 'm. I will say this, it is a good idea to try the Super Kick I and II. My old 22 inch Premier was HUGE with a SK II but my new GMS 20 inch was choked and just bad sounding with it. I went with a SK I and it rocks. As Bishbashbosh said above the SK I is single ply and that works better for some drums. I am a big fan of the Aquarian SK heads, very nice.

I know this is going to be the trendy thing to say but if you want that "low end "thud" from the kick" you have to start with a kick that has that low end thud.

The "basketball" sound (that I personally HATE) comes from the sound of the beater bouncing around the drum. Some mics will accent this more than others but this is not a problem with your gear, it is a problem with the source and the placement.

Think of why a basketball sounds like it does, the sound is trapped and it gets all phasie because it is bouncing around with nothing to soak it up. Kick drums do the same thing unless you have a little something to soak up the sound. I am not taking about 20 pillows like the 70's, I am talking about a small towel or acoustic foam in the bottom of the drum. The foam that I put my SM91 on in my GMS kick is about 6 inches long by 3 inches wide, it makes a HUGE difference in how the microphone "hears" the kick.

Hope this helps..... (hell I just hope someone actually reads my long-winded crap....)

[Kestral]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

thumbsup
Yep I love 'm. I will say this, it is a good idea to try the Super Kick I and II. My old 22 inch Premier was HUGE with a SK II but my new GMS 20 inch was choked and just bad sounding with it. I went with a SK I and it rocks. As Bishbashbosh said above the SK I is single ply and that works better for some drums. I am a big fan of the Aquarian SK heads, very nice.

I know this is going to be the trendy thing to say but if you want that "low end "thud" from the kick" you have to start with a kick that has that low end thud.

The "basketball" sound (that I personally HATE) comes from the sound of the beater bouncing around the drum. Some mics will accent this more than others but this is not a problem with your gear, it is a problem with the source and the placement.

Think of why a basketball sounds like it does, the sound is trapped and it gets all phasie because it is bouncing around with nothing to soak it up. Kick drums do the same thing unless you have a little something to soak up the sound. I am not taking about 20 pillows like the 70's, I am talking about a small towel or acoustic foam in the bottom of the drum. The foam that I put my SM91 on in my GMS kick is about 6 inches long by 3 inches wide, it makes a HUGE difference in how the microphone "hears" the kick.

Hope this helps..... (hell I just hope someone actually reads my long-winded crap....)

I don't mind reading your "long winded crap". thumbsup

The difference between you and the other person who posts long winded crap is that you actually answer the question in a clear and straightforward manner, unlike Rain Man who needs to also give a history lesson on why he's so smart and good and needs approval.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by Kestral

I don't mind reading your "long winded crap". thumbsup

The difference between you and the other person who posts long winded crap is that you actually answer the question in a clear and straightforward manner, unlike Rain Man who needs to also give a history lesson on why he's so smart and good and needs approval.

LOL.. thanks man.. I can feel the love through the warm glow of the computer monitor.

[opentune]

There´s one thing that cannot be overstressed....

...the drummer should make sure that his playing is appropriate.

It´s very important that the beater has that certain (...uhmmm...how do
i explain that in english???...) rebound. Whatever that means....
It´s not good for the low-end if the beater "gets stuck" in the skin, cause
the kickdrum cannot breath/produce the desired tone.

Well, i dunno how describe that - but since it´s not been mentioned here...

[jomo1234]

What kind of beater are you using and what is the size of your kick drum? I'm surprised that these issues haven't been addressed in this thread. These will certainly make an enormous difference in the tone.

Before you worry about mics and mic placement, make sure you like the tone of the drum.

[Doublehelix]

Thanks to all who have responded, I never expected this much help! All great stuff, and I will be working on this tune in the next week or so (we have already taken the drums down as we *thought* we were done with them).

Originally Posted by jomo1234

What kind of beater are you using and what is the size of your kick drum? I'm surprised that these issues haven't been addressed in this thread. These will certainly make an enormous difference in the tone.

Before you worry about mics and mic placement, make sure you like the tone of the drum.

Excellent point! This is the old "polish a turd" topic, isn't it? If the kick does not sound that way in the room, there is no way in hell I am going to get that sound on tape without doing some sample replacement or some wild treatment.

I'm pretty sure this is a 20" kick (it looks small, but it might be a 22"), and he is using an Iron Cobra pedal with a hard beater. The reso head has a good sized hole in it, but I am not sure the type. The beater head is an EMAD if I am not mistaken. I'll have to ask him tonight if he comes to the overdub session.

Thanks again one and all! What a great place to ask for help!

[Twisted Tones]

Just to add my 2 cents...

Totally agree on the Aquarians. I have been using the Super Kick II for a long. Of course, some kicks sound great with the Power Stroke. It's all context.

Now...a couple of things I would try if I were going for this sound. I'd take the front head off of the kick, get a nice soft pillow of some kind (feather, down, something plush and squishy for preference), and set that in the kick (you'll have to experiment for the right about of contact between the pillow and the batter side head) and put something really on top of it...one of those black sand bags or a cinder block works a treat. The weight in drum is important (I think) because it seems to lower the fundamental note and (if you are in a studio with a resonant floor) couple the drum to the floor, thusly exciting more low end in the room.

After that is setup, take a few minutes to listen to the kick in a few different spots in the room. If the room is medium to large sized a lot of times I like the drums in a corner so that sound is firing out into the room, kind of like a speaker cone. Anyhow, find a good general spot and then try moving the kick about a foot in each direction. I've been surprised at the amount of difference this can make.

Hopefully I'm not restating anything anyone has already posted. There are some great ideas here I am going try the next time I record a kit.

Peace,
Dan

[chetatkinsdiet]

All good ideas, but really I'd say the key is to use the right drum. Get a good, vintage 24" kick, tuned low, blanket inside. Be sure to weight it down. I use photo sand bags or even leg/arm weights work (just make sure they don't have belts or other hardware that will rattle). No idea why this works, but it helps tighten things up a bit. Aquarian, Remo, Evans.....whatever you decide is fine. A double ply head is going to be a bit deeper/fatter, so I'd go there.

On the mic....the D112 only gives you that "basketball" sound. That's the one knock against it. It's a great mic and is easy to get a sound. Trouble is, that's it's sound. AC/DC sound was not that sound. It was a more vintage tone. I'd go with the 421, SM7 or better yet...an RE20 inside, or close. Then use a nice LDC outside....maybe in a tunnel.

later,
m

[84K]

EVANS EMAD will improve your kick's low end is a big way. It amazes me how much a difference it makes. I'm no drummer, but I recommend them for all rock drummers (and request them for all sessions). stike


Get the EMAD heads (both sides) and a Yamaha SubKick and wallah....

[Lee Knight]

Originally Posted by opentune

It´s very important that the beater has that certain (...uhmmm...how do
i explain that in english???...) rebound. Whatever that means....
It´s not good for the low-end if the beater "gets stuck" in the skin, cause
the kickdrum cannot breath/produce the desired tone.

This is a great point. I just picked up playing the drums a little so I could understand more clearly what's going on with them. I've played a lot of different instruments over the years but only this year did I jump into drums.

After getting the basic coodination skills down the first thing I notice is the difference in tone on the kick when I'd "bury the beater". As in... there is no tone.

A good drummer will allow that beater to rebound properly. This discovery has helped me quite a bit when recording drummers. Some drummers can get lazy and not realize the importance of it. Remind him of the rebound and all of a sudden... IT'S A FRICKIN' KICK DRUM!

Like AC/DC.