Psychedelic or experimental production techniques

[ZenMaster]

I'm in the process of tracking my personal project. I work currently as a recording/mixing engineer in a beautiful hybrid studio.. I mostly track to tape, 2"/24, but we also have the possibility to use Alesis HD24 and PT/Logic. We have large enough console and pretty decent backline and mic collection.

In my own project I'm at times after some swirly, sort of 60's psych stuff, lush textures but combining it slightly with some 'modern punchy' sound of today. (Pretty hard to explain as english is not my main language..)

Anyway it'd be cool to gather and switch some information on these "unusual" techniques, so please share your trick on the subject!
So far I've utilized the ADT vocal trick, some pretty spacey stuff through Leslie with a H3500 etc. Please, spread the knowledge!

[allstar]

Try running tracks backwards and see if anything catches your ear. If you find something interesting you can try running it alongside the mix playing in the usual direction or maybe loop it.

Phasing, on sections of the whole mix perhaps.

Using effects as arrangement changes, like tracks dropping into 100% wet reverb for a time.

Varispeed effects. I once recorded cars driving by in the rain and played it back at half speed in the track, it added a trippy backdrop to the music.

Delays are also an obvious one to play with. Try putting other effects in the feedback path like pitch shifters or filters.

[alex kennedy]

i would investigate different types of scales.... you can get some trippy stuff using the whole tone scale, or the hungarian minor in Ab!

try reamping one of your tracks as well, but record the output, swirling the mic around, you get a natural, f'ed up phasey swirling effect....

in fact, a lot of techniques that amon tobin used to record his strings on the Foley room would also be apt....

basically he sat in the middle of the Kronos Quartet with an onmi directional shot gun mic and just moved it around to capture the different instruments playing at the same time..... proper lush, diy recording.... whic i feel links into the re amping technique above....

you could also expand on the re amping by placing the mic inside different things, like a box, or a metal sugar container.....etc etc

also i like using a fuzz box as an send effect, then ride the aux knob a bit....also pretty trippy...

distortion in general adds to the psych nature of tunes!

hope this helps a bit!

[paulneedles]

Try using the varispeed on your tape machine to warp sounds and echoes so that they follow things that are going on with the other instruments.

Radical panning can be cool - for example, having the whole band on one side and a weird vibrato pulse on the other, and then slowly rotating them.

'Morph' instruments and vocals by double tracking them with another sound source playing the same note with a different tone, and crossfading between them.

[theblue1]

Like others, one of the first classes of effect that leapt to my mind was reversed audio tracks.

But, while I appreciate the retro method of using tape for backwards sounds (which I did my share of BITD), I would strongly urge using one of your DAWs to do them. You can still apply a tape feel with a plug in -- even though I wouldn't suggest such a thing in a hybrid studio for a lot of stuff -- but backwards is something that a DAW can do so well and make so easy to edit or reposition the backwards track in the timeline (which can be crucial for getting a good feel -- back in the day, I would sometimes put my backwards track on a separate deck and fly it in until I could find just the right seating in the timeline). Also, on a DAW you can use editing and micro-editing techniques simply not available on a tape deck (or that would take weeks to do).


Honestly, even if I wanted to keep an overall retro feel, I think I would take a long hard look/listen to some cutting edge dance/club music FX tricks. In large part, that's where a lot of the progressive mangling is going on, it seems to me.

But, working backwards, if you're looking for a collection of spot-on retro FX in use in one place, I'd check out the mid-80s XTC spin off album 25 O'Clock by 'The Dukes of Stratosphear': 25 O'Clock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -- released on April 1st (April Fool's Day in the Anglo-centric world), 1985. It may have been tongue in cheek -- but there's a lot of love of psychedelica on that record. They also released a second, full ablum called Psonic Psunspot (the two of them have been collected into a CD collection, Chips from the Chocolate Fireball.)

[Mystr Tiger]

Try both dynamic panning of tracks and severe static panning in the arrangement of instruments. Many of those 60's tracks had, for example, drums and guitars on one side and vocals and percussion on the other, with lead vocals in the middle or even sometimes on just one side. I never noticed this until recently, but Rubber Soul is a left/right mix with nothing in the center.

[robertshaw]

melotron samples are cool or a real one if you can find one

[drezz]

So far I've utilized the ADT vocal trick, some pretty spacey stuff through Leslie with a H3500 etc. Please, spread the knowledge!
[/QUOTE]

Hi there,

How are you achieving your ADT? There's more to it than simply delaying the vocal line with a close slapback delay. The whole ADT trick is rather involved, and real ADT is soo much better than faked ADT as its psychoacoustic properties are realtime and linear so we "hear" it differently & subconciously appreciate it in a different way to mere delay........
Let me explain (sorry if i'm teaching you to suck eggs here and you've already done all this!!)..........
It's best done on tape machines of the same type, i'm using Studer A80s with a custom made vari-speed mod. Basically you have a repro head output and a sync head output on each channel of the multitrack tape machine. (This is all based on working with A80s, i cant speak for other models, but the principles would be the same)......
Now, lets assume you have the multitracks repro outs returning to the desk as normal for all tape return tracks, and whichever track you want to ADT, let's say track 5, you take the sync output of track 5 which has its own XLR, and plug it into a 2 track 1/4" A80 machine which has been set to record, and you take the output of this machine into the mixer on another channel.
You see where i'm going?
Because the output from track 5 is playing into the 2nd machine from your sync head, and the 2nd tape machine is recording and playing back into the desk, and you're monitoring both machines, and the distance between the heads on both machines are the same distance apart (record, repro & sync), and you're tweaking the vari speed very slightly around the desired sweet spot time (around 40ms for the classic beatles/abbey rd ADT) and oscillating the speed of it (real ADT moves slightly!) then you've got the vocal (or anything) effect that cannot really be duplicated any other way to sound as good.
I know that sounds like a headf**k, and it is slightly and it's cumbersome, but when you get it right, and it takes a while.....IT SOUNDS ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC!!!!
Now try the same procedure and do it in stereo, 2 sync outs from multitrack to the 2nd 2 track machine for stereo, and do it on say drums, get your varispeed bang on so the 2 different machines are virtually playing at the same speed and in time, then reverse the phase of the returns from the 2 track machine on the desk and tweak the varispeed VERY VERY gently, and bingo you've got tape flange/phase.........now that is the sound of psychedelia, and again you cant get THAT sound any other way than by using tape machines! Admitedly you could just plug into an external FX processor and put it thru the phase preset, but it wont sound half as good. And of course on a DAW you could synch 2 seperate sections of audio to play at the same time sample accurate and then introduce some modulation to one of them with an LFO, but it's not really the same, it just doesnt have the mojo.........
For good descriptions of these techniques and other ones check out the "Recording the Beatles" book. Ken Townsend was the guy who first pioneered these techniques at Abbey Rd circa '66'ish in response to Lennon not wanting to double track his voice all the time..!!
Happy tape manipulating...........

[Mad John]

First rule is that you have to listen to endless hours of Syd Barrett!

[theblue1]

Hi there,

How are you achieving your ADT? There's more to it than simply delaying the vocal line with a close slapback delay. The whole ADT trick is rather involved, and real ADT is soo much better than faked ADT as its psychoacoustic properties are realtime and linear so we "hear" it differently & subconciously appreciate it in a different way to mere delay........
Let me explain (sorry if i'm teaching you to suck eggs here and you've already done all this!!)..........
It's best done on tape machines of the same type, i'm using Studer A80s with a custom made vari-speed mod. Basically you have a repro head output and a sync head output on each channel of the multitrack tape machine. (This is all based on working with A80s, i cant speak for other models, but the principles would be the same)......
Now, lets assume you have the multitracks repro outs returning to the desk as normal for all tape return tracks, and whichever track you want to ADT, let's say track 5, you take the sync output of track 5 which has its own XLR, and plug it into a 2 track 1/4" A80 machine which has been set to record, and you take the output of this machine into the mixer on another channel.
You see where i'm going?
Because the output from track 5 is playing into the 2nd machine from your sync head, and the 2nd tape machine is recording and playing back into the desk, and you're monitoring both machines, and the distance between the heads on both machines are the same distance apart (record, repro & sync), and you're tweaking the vari speed very slightly around the desired sweet spot time (around 40ms for the classic beatles/abbey rd ADT) and oscillating the speed of it (real ADT moves slightly!) then you've got the vocal (or anything) effect that cannot really be duplicated any other way to sound as good.
I know that sounds like a headf**k, and it is slightly and it's cumbersome, but when you get it right, and it takes a while.....IT SOUNDS ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC!!!!
Now try the same procedure and do it in stereo, 2 sync outs from multitrack to the 2nd 2 track machine for stereo, and do it on say drums, get your varispeed bang on so the 2 different machines are virtually playing at the same speed and in time, then reverse the phase of the returns from the 2 track machine on the desk and tweak the varispeed VERY VERY gently, and bingo you've got tape flange/phase.........now that is the sound of psychedelia, and again you cant get THAT sound any other way than by using tape machines! Admitedly you could just plug into an external FX processor and put it thru the phase preset, but it wont sound half as good. And of course on a DAW you could synch 2 seperate sections of audio to play at the same time sample accurate and then introduce some modulation to one of them with an LFO, but it's not really the same, it just doesnt have the mojo.........
For good descriptions of these techniques and other ones check out the "Recording the Beatles" book. Ken Townsend was the guy who first pioneered these techniques at Abbey Rd circa '66'ish in response to Lennon not wanting to double track his voice all the time..!!
Happy tape manipulating...........

Well... it certainly wouldn't be as much fun...

I like the notion of using the presumably somewhat chaotic micro-speed fluctuations that will result from continual chase-to-lock recalibration (if I understand the technique as described correctly)... using an LFO would, of course, provide a simple, regular oscillation; although you might be able to co-modulate with two asynchronous LFOs... although there would still be some periodicity there, the complex fluctuations might provide some of the same chaos-driven mojo.

But, of course, it wouldn't be as cool... no question.

[T'Mershi Duween]

Originally Posted by theblue1

But, working backwards, if you're looking for a collection of spot-on retro FX in use in one place, I'd check out the mid-80s XTC spin off album 25 O'Clock by 'The Dukes of Stratosphear': 25 O'Clock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -- released on April 1st (April Fool's Day in the Anglo-centric world), 1985. It may have been tongue in cheek -- but there's a lot of love of psychedelica on that record. They also released a second, full ablum called Psonic Psunspot (the two of them have been collected into a CD collection, Chips from the Chocolate Fireball.)

thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup


The 'Dukes Of Stratosphear' project is one of the most awesome psychedelic recordings evah!

It's like a textbook study in psychedelic production techniques. Completely amazing work from John Leckie and XTC (a band that is every bit as great as the Beatles).

Oh, and the vinyl versions of 25 O'Clock and Psonic Psunspot sound incredible.

Just don't forget to add SITAR! Lot's and lot's of SITAR!

OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...

[Dean Roddey]

Definitely plenty of phaser, flanger, chorus, vibra, and delay on the guitars. That by itself will take you a long way. A good analog organ and Mini Moog would be really useful.

[T'Mershi Duween]

Don't forget the Mellotron!

And of course... the Univibe!

The intro to Robin Trower's Bridge Of Sighs is some serious psychedelic Leslie swirl.

The drum sound on Tomorrow Never Knows is also heavy psych goo.

The Nuggets box set of obscure British psych is bad ass as well.

Tune in, turn on and drop out!

The universe in 250 micro grams...

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by T'Mershi Duween

thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup


The 'Dukes Of Stratosphear' project is one of the most awesome psychedelic recordings evah!

It's like a textbook study in psychedelic production techniques. Completely amazing work from John Leckie and XTC (a band that is every bit as great as the Beatles).

Oh, and the vinyl versions of 25 O'Clock and Psonic Psunspot sound incredible.

Just don't forget to add SITAR! Lot's and lot's of SITAR!

OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...

I'm lucky to be one of the people who saw XTC when they were here (in LA) in February 1980 (they did one show the following year at the Palladium; here's a list of every XTC concert.) That was pretty much it for live shows in LA -- although they did a live in studio at then-great LA station KCRW in 1989.

The 1980 show was one of the best shows I ever saw. (And I've seen some great shows: from Louis Armstrong to Jimi Hendrix and quite a ways beyond.)

[T'Mershi Duween]

Originally Posted by theblue1

I'm lucky to be one of the people who saw XTC when they were here (in LA) in February 1980 (they did one show the following year at the Palladium; here's a list of every XTC concert.) That was pretty much it for live shows in LA -- although they did a live in studio at then-great LA station KCRW in 1989.

The 1980 show was one of the best shows I ever saw. (And I've seen some great shows: from Louis Armstrong to Jimi Hendrix and quite a ways beyond.)

That must have been the Drums And Wires tour? The one they did with The Police?

I had tickets to the English Settlement tour in Los Angeles.

That was the one that got cancelled because of Andy Partridge's "anxiety".

They never played live (except for radio) ever again.

If they were to tour now, they would sell out every date.

Lot's of XTC fans around.

[robertshaw]

Strawberry Alarmclock

[RKrizman]

Anybody mention backwards reverb?

Also, randomness and dissonance.

-R

[ZenMaster]

WOW , , , loads of amazing tricks and thoughts!!! You guys seriously started to spread the word : )

Originally Posted by drezz

How are you achieving your ADT?

I do it by having the vocal on two tracks, playing one of them off the sync head, and delaying that one with a 1/4" Revox machine. Ok, I haven't managed to make it sound THAT good yet... pretty good but not that huge as it should... guess I have to dig deeper...

The swirling mic trick is also definitely something i should check (along with all the other great stuff listed), I have thought about it, especially because I heard from the studio manager that in 80's or early 90's there was a band playing live at the tracking room and in the middle there was this guy swinging around an SM58. I haven't heard the end result but I've been told it sounded very cool!

Oh and allstar I've been playing with the idea of the huge effect washes, it just gets a bit heavy when you're arranging, engineering, playing and pushing the button at the same time, and on top of that, I'd love to get THE sounds on the go. So it's cool to get to know some elaborated ideas, so I don't have to make my way through all of the endless possibilities!

One cool trick I've found out is to mult the acoustic guitar signal as I'm playing it, send it through a delay about 50% wet, then through 480L preset Inside out (I guess in this context almost any 'backwards' reverb will do the trick), mix it very wet, and distort it slightly with a small amp to give it some spark This gives me sort of breathing pedal tone kind of effect. I should try it with a violin player some day . . .

[ZenMaster]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

Anybody mention backwards reverb?

Also, randomness and dissonance.

-R

These are on the menu too! Btw, you guys have any idea who was the first one to do the backwards reverb?

[ZenMaster]

Originally Posted by T'Mershi Duween

The universe in 250 micro grams...

Oh I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to provide this with the CD

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by T'Mershi Duween

That must have been the Drums And Wires tour? The one they did with The Police?

I had tickets to the English Settlement tour in Los Angeles.

That was the one that got cancelled because of Andy Partridge's "anxiety".

They never played live (except for radio) ever again.

If they were to tour now, they would sell out every date.

Lot's of XTC fans around.

Good golly no. (Not exactly a fan of that particular band.) They may have played with them elsewhere in the States, but, happily, XTC was headlining the ~400 person Whisky A Go Go on the fabled Sunset Strip those 3 nights. However, it was so packed I figure there were quite a few more people there...

The funny thing was, my motorcycle wasn't running and I had to literally call everyone I knew (and I knew a LOT of people in those days) trying to swap one of my tix (my then-GF didn't want to go for some reason; I'll reserve comment) and finally, the night before the show, I got hold of a friend of a friend who was so wary of strangers it was touch and go. But we got there, it was a great show and I never saw my wary 'date' again (as far as I know, anyhow). But we did agree it was an amazingly great show.


PS... I don't want to sound unsympathetic, in the least. In this sad, old world, I'm afraid, there are way too many good reasons for a young woman to be wary of strangers.

[vincentvangogo]

Because my tape machine won't play from the synch and repro heads at the same time, the way we do ADT is to reverse the reels, then copy the track we want to ADT onto another track via the repro head, (while remembering that track 1 will now be track 8 etc.)
When you put the reels back to normal the copied track will be slightly ahead of the other one, so we send this signal to a 1/4" machine and delay it until it sounds good. I call this AADT (Artificial Artificial Double Tracking.)

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

Strawberry Alarmclock

No! You can't make me!

[vonsac]

I definitely have to agree with the above mentioned different micing techniques. You can acquire vastly different sounds depending on how you utilize the spaces between and around the sound source and the mic.

I usually go to a bunch of thrift stores or garage sales and pick up "junk" equipment. Usually you can utilize them in some way to get some pretty intriguing timbres or sounds. I recently picked up an Akai GX-265d (reel-to-reel) for 5$ - fully functional! Waiting for some reels to arrive so I can incorporate it into my arsenal. Great for this kind of thing (as well as ambient as well.)

Try filtering your sounds through different mediums. A lot of synths have in/out jacks where you can send the sound through their effects, filters, or etc. This is great for shaping sounds into something completely else. I especially love running things through my Hammond organs leslie and micing it - such a beautiful mechanism!

Sampling is a a great thing to use as well, especially once sent through a bunch of strange effects.

The possibilities are endless!

[rcb4t2]

Crazy Recording Techniques - Move the Mics

[entropy]

Watkins Copy Cat

[FFTT]

Some interesting footage of Hendrix - Led Zeppelin producer Eddie Kramer working with my old friend Johnny Tsak in pre production.

[KevWind]

[QUOTE=RKrizman;5534315]Anybody mention backwards reverb

Backwards reverb ? Sounds cool, this would have the effect before the sound ? How would one set this up ?

Oh and for that Byrds, Jefferson Airplane sound maybe some electric 12 string.

[ZenMaster]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Backwards reverb ? Sounds cool, this would have the effect before the sound ? How would one set this up ?

By sending reversed audio to a reverb and then printing and reversing the reverb.
I'd also add synthesizer arpeggios to the love list. As on loads of Ozric Tentacles tracks, Steve Hillages Rainbow Dome Musick, You by Gong . . . And looooooooong filter sweeps.
And cheers theblue1, Chips from the Chocolate Fireball sounds wicked!!!

[tree]

If you can record say, an Andy of Mayberry TV show, and lay it down randomly onto an adjacent track of the song you're working on you'll likely find some very psych poetic & musical co incidences happen time to time on playback. Save the best, erase the rest.
Chance is our friend.