Best 2bus Compressor for Dance or Hiphop Music

[passionmax]

I am looking for a 2bus compressor to glue my final mix. I am coming out of Protools HD into a Dangerous 2bus. I do Dance music mostly and hiphop. I need a compressor that can preserve the lowend. I want the most punch possible. My expereience with some compressors is they take away from the lowend. I need that kick to slam through the speakers.
thanks

[panda]

you need something like an L2 [iis there an L3] ?
because you need max volume "."
if your pressing to vinyl for DJs to mix. you need the most volume. otherwise people might not spin it. [their gain knobs are probably already maxed on their mixers]

panda

[I Lurk]

Originally Posted by passionmax

I am looking for a 2bus compressor to glue my final mix. I am coming out of Protools HD into a Dangerous 2bus. I do Dance music mostly and hiphop. I need a compressor that can preserve the lowend. I want the most punch possible. My expereience with some compressors is they take away from the lowend. I need that kick to slam through the speakers.
thanks

You need an STC-8

regards

[jdunn]

Originally Posted by panda

if your pressing to vinyl for DJs to mix. you need the most volume. otherwise people might not spin it. [their gain knobs are probably already maxed on their mixers]

panda

Right! Which means they are a lame DJ. The great DJ Shadow has explained that if you max the volume on your DJ mixer, you may run into a problem. That is, when you want to play a quiet record. You can't, if your volume is already maxed out!

Use bigger amps or something so you don't have to crank your volume all the time. You'll be a better DJ. Or do you only play records that were made in the last few years?

These general comments apply to all DJ's.

[I Lurk]

Originally Posted by panda

you need something like an L2 [iis there an L3] ?
because you need max volume "."
if your pressing to vinyl for DJs to mix. you need the most volume. otherwise people might not spin it. [their gain knobs are probably already maxed on their mixers]

panda

Mastering engineers are going to get you if you say such things

[panda]

blablabla. yes, of coarse he really needs like a manley vari-mu, or a crane song, or whatever. and of coarse maxed out gain knobs on a DJ mixer is wrong.
but!! thats what is going on. you can not like it all you want. its not changing cause you say so. if the guy wants his stuff to be DJ'd. it needs to be as loud as possible. "."
if he wants to fight the system, and do his thing, he should make records with great dynamics, that require you to turn up the grain, over normal records.oh, and not have it Dj'd. and then he can have all the great recording/production cred he wants, even though no one is getting down to his tracks. cause no one is playing them cause, why, they are to quiet! i'm not saying its fair or right. it is what it is.

panda

[Darius van H]

I would suggest that one comp' isn't going to give you what you need.

If i was doing a hiphop mix (i don't mix but do a fair ammount of hiphop from stems, which sometimes ammount to almost the same thing) i'd send out the drums and instruments to a red 3, get that pumping, bring this into the Dangerous and add the vox and bass to taste and then send the whole shabang thru a C2 or similiar for a bit more squeeze (just a touch, mind)........that way you can get a nice pump on the drums/music without the vox ducking all over the place....you might also need some clipping somewhere in the chain if you're looking to win an olympic loudness medal....then into the hedd or (heaven forbid) tape for a bit more goodness and you're good to go

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by panda

blablabla. yes, of coarse he really needs like a manley vari-mu, or a crane song, or whatever. and of coarse maxed out gain knobs on a DJ mixer is wrong.
but!! thats what is going on. you can not like it all you want. its not changing cause you say so. if the guy wants his stuff to be DJ'd. it needs to be as loud as possible. "."
if he wants to fight the system, and do his thing, he should make records with great dynamics, that require you to turn up the grain, over normal records.oh, and not have it Dj'd. and then he can have all the great recording/production cred he wants, even though no one is getting down to his tracks. cause no one is playing them cause, why, they are to quiet! i'm not saying its fair or right. it is what it is.

panda

not true at all. while a record production for a dance track should be loud, and pump out of the PA, this is not achieved by squashing everything completely. In fact you will ruin the chance for a DJ to use the dynamics. Why do you think fast envelopes are important? (high slew rates, fast attack)

You could do that, of course, as there are NO rules in dance music. It's your choice. But you will produce something that is lacking dynamics. Fine for a 6 AM acid party with all the knobs at 10 (earbleed), but to state that you have to squash everything to death because everbody is doing so, and DJs have the gain on their mixer at full, is complete nonsense. (to put it mildly) The creation and production of a dance track are one and the same thing. So use the mixing tools like you use your synths and effects.

IMO, and this is just my approach, some parts of your track, for instance the bassdrum, or snares, you compress to death, with a mean machine, while others retain dynamics, for instance percussion, or a background synth. The whole track gets a 2 buss compression treatment here too, to make it louder and to glue, but always retaining the original idea. And certainly not all the time. If the original idea was to squash the hell out of it, it gets squashed. If not, not.

Again, please note that "dance" music should be made, in the way YOU want it. If you want to sculpt your music after some example, that is cool, you will put your music in a recognisable, and mixable format. But a high amount of your OWN ideas is required. Make it special, and people will recognise your signature. If not, your track will end up on the ever growing pile of simular sounding crap. A lot of great tracks were done, with NO buss compression at all.

As for what compressor? Try the free SSL plugin. I get very nice artefacts by squashing loops. It is not the same as the SSL hardware clone that I've got, as the hardware will not mess up the lows that much. (even when compressing full range) To compress bass try the DBX 160. A Crane Song is a magic machine, but try to get by with something less expensive first (unless you have plenty of cash, then go for it). An L2 or simular machine can be used to level things, but is not my favourite. I like spectral compressors, where you can balance stuff. Also use the sidechain. Or go for a compressor that has a "big" switch like the 1968 or 2500.

And have fun. f*ck the "rules".

EDIT: oh and Panda; if it is too quiet, your PA sucks, or the guy controlling it. or both.

[jdunn]

I'll say it again. Somebody might laugh.

"Lucey likes the TFTPro P38."

I'm gonna suggest something else I haven't tried, but I honestly think it might be a fantastic compressor for this style.

DAV Electronics BG4

Notice the filters, and it even looks the part. Like a live DJ/Dancehall compressor that is!

This just reminded me that I may try their Stereo Mastering EQ.

[Rush909]

I agree with previous poster... ANYTHING that will get your track LOUD!!! anything... that is ofcouse if you are tyring to match the current commercial CDs... listen to Gwen Stefani's album... it is so slammed and sounds so distorted, that it could easilty have gone through an L3... fidelity has gone out the window in favor of getting stuff loud in those forms of music...

so just get the track sounding hot, and then make sure it's louder than anything out there and you are guaranteed a hit...

r.

[ttauri]

Originally Posted by jdunn

The great DJ Shadow has explained that if you max the volume on your DJ mixer, you may run into a problem. That is, when you want to play a quiet record. You can't, if your volume is already maxed out!

The bigger problem is with almost all DJ mixers, clipping the mixer will sound truly awful.

Panda does have a point, at least in certain dance circles (big-room housers & trancers). I've heard the louder-is-better thing a lot, particularly with touring DJs, who're mixing a lot of slammed CDs and then the vinyl (or quieter CDs) sounds low by comparison.

OTOH, I've had a pretty good year underpunching the RMS levels (around -12 on average), for whatever that's worth.

Peece,
T. Tauri

[jdunn]

Originally Posted by Rush909

so just get the track sounding hot, and then make sure it's louder than anything out there and you are guaranteed a hit...

r.

The problem is it can't get any louder at this point. Pretty soon we'll just be listening to various distortion tones as music! There is nothing wrong with having to turn the volume up a bit and getting a clearer soudning track. When I hear dance music at clubs these days, it sounds absolutely horrible. If the track is distorted to begin with, there is simply no chance for it to sound good ever!

But I do understand the whole commercial volume wars thing. It's lame!

[superburtm]

Trying to compensate for a crappy PA or Sound engineer by blitzing the headroom on your DJ mixer is cutting your own throat. Loud is one thing. Distorted and clipping is another thing all together.


DJ's that don't understand signal flow drive me out of my fricking mind.

Originally Posted by panda

blablabla. yes, of coarse he really needs like a manley vari-mu, or a crane song, or whatever. and of coarse maxed out gain knobs on a DJ mixer is wrong.
but!! thats what is going on. you can not like it all you want. its not changing cause you say so. if the guy wants his stuff to be DJ'd. it needs to be as loud as possible. "."
if he wants to fight the system, and do his thing, he should make records with great dynamics, that require you to turn up the grain, over normal records.oh, and not have it Dj'd. and then he can have all the great recording/production cred he wants, even though no one is getting down to his tracks. cause no one is playing them cause, why, they are to quiet! i'm not saying its fair or right. it is what it is.

panda

[superburtm]

Dj's that don't understand singal flow drive me out of mind! Loud is one thing, distorted clipped and 0 headroom are another. Records are already smashed these days don't smash them again. Hang the Dj!

Originally Posted by panda

blablabla. yes, of coarse he really needs like a manley vari-mu, or a crane song, or whatever. and of coarse maxed out gain knobs on a DJ mixer is wrong.
but!! thats what is going on. you can not like it all you want. its not changing cause you say so. if the guy wants his stuff to be DJ'd. it needs to be as loud as possible. "."
if he wants to fight the system, and do his thing, he should make records with great dynamics, that require you to turn up the grain, over normal records.oh, and not have it Dj'd. and then he can have all the great recording/production cred he wants, even though no one is getting down to his tracks. cause no one is playing them cause, why, they are to quiet! i'm not saying its fair or right. it is what it is.

panda

[5down1up]

all u need is a comp + some filters so the comp doesnt eat up all your bass

there are so many out there ... you just have to try

[Jim vanBergen]

is price a consideration? There are options... but you've gotten some good advice so far.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by Rush909

that is ofcouse if you are tyring to match the current commercial CDs...

the point is: you are not.

Two completely different things: music for PA and commercial CD for airplay/homestereo. Different dynamics.

If a "dance" DJ does not understand this, they should mix at home, on the hifi, playing really "loud" cds, for his pets and family.

DJ-ing is also an art. Sure there are some "completely overdrive all the time" jojos around. I can't blame em, because they are already deaf as a stone (99% of them). I notice when taking over, I have to put the monitor, and headphone levels back to normal. It's a bit sad to hear someone turn a good punchy colourful tune to unrecognisable mush. But hey, NO RULES!

This is just a percentage. Good, really good DJs know what they are doing, volume-wise, all the time, and of course, it is absolutely essential to have kickass PA in a good room. For instance I really LOVE the sonics in Paradiso, Amsterdam. BIG AND FAT.

Check out the Drawmer 1969 Mercenary Edition, this guy will leave your low end alone. This way you can smash hell out of everything else, and still have one hellasious thump.

[Alécio Costa]

The MAster X 5 plug will help with level and maintaing a good punchy bass.
I have seen some people still using the Finalizer 96K Pro and achieveing good results but hey, do not overlimit it.
I do not go to dance clubs anymore.. ear fatigue to so much limiting etc

[Rush909]

Originally Posted by jdunn

When I hear dance music at clubs these days, it sounds absolutely horrible. If the track is distorted to begin with, there is simply no chance for it to sound good ever!

But I do understand the whole commercial volume wars thing. It's lame!

the problem with dance music at clubs these days is not only the limiting thing... it's the doing everything ITB by an increasing array of kids with nothing but a computer... atleast it used to be that you had to have some money to buy some equipment... as you collect equipment you are getting better at mixing/making music... Now any kid with $2000 and an internet connection to download some cracked software can make Dance music... and for the most part it sounds like it!

r.

[robot gigante]

You know, (correct me if I'm wrong) the original poster doesn't seem to be concerned so much with loudness per se as something that will let the kick punch and glue his mix together. I'm guessing (also correct me if I'm wrong as well here) that he's familiar with L2 style limiting so please put this to rest!

I think Darius' recommendations are pretty much spot on. I would add a couple or a few DBX 160X or XT's to his list and, with dance stuff at least, sidechain those to the kick and use them to duck a bit (maybe the bass, maybe stuff that's masking the attack, use your ears) of whatever is getting in the way of letting the kick punch.

'Cause really getting the kick to slam though those speakers is not really a matter of a louder (as in L2'ed really hard) mix if the mix is muffled sounding and the bass, kick and other stuff are all fighting each other. IMHO getting dance music to really slam comes from how it's mixed- and I think a lot of it is knowing how and what to sidechain, proper use of EQ, and by using multiple busses like Darius suggests.

[I Lurk]

Originally Posted by panda

blablabla.

The guy asked :

1) punch
2) glue his mix
3) preserve the bass

How a L2 or L3 could help him ?

regards

[headz]

Originally Posted by I Lurk

The guy asked :

1) punch
2) glue his mix
3) preserve the bass

How a L2 or L3 could help him ?

regards

not much IMO :-)

Someway I'm in same boat as 'passionmax' - comming from logic7>Dangerous2b
and still looking for a good 2bus comp. I always have the STC-8 on the list for this purpose as my favourite comp but its currently way to expensive for me so I started to 'throw the cards on table again' for some new mindgames (thats what gearsluts substitutes very well). So I recently thought about checking out a drawmer 1968 for that purpose - of course its a complete different beast soundwise but somehow might fit very well to the dance/electronica style I produce.
I know a 1969 has more features included and the comp should be same but I'd just think about getting the best and still affordable 2bus comp here, btw anybody used the 'RMS Roll Music' super stereo comp ?

[84K]

Let me start by saying, I am no dance or hip hop ninja or protégé.

Recently, I mastered a rap album for a friend as a favour. Apparently, it has been getting rave reviews in some indie hip hop mags and props from others in that field. I attribute that more to the performances and the mixes then my work, but I did make it way louder and added nice compression. I used the Thermionic Culture Phoenix for the compression on the 2 buss, then Pultec EQP-1s for the EQ followed by the Waves MaxxBCL for that extra . It worked out very nice. I was told that DJ's comment on how it is the loudest track going right now. Makes me laugh ... but really, 99.99999% was already there when I got it. But long story short, I liked the Thermionic Culture Phoenix for gluing that gig together.

[Sensenel]

HI,

so far ,back to the Subject ... actualy for your needs the API 2500 Bus Compressor has exactly the Options you wanted to realize in your mix ... ( i wonder that nobodynamed it so far )

with the " Thrust" option u can choose the Frequ. Range ... with the Button labeld " loud" almost only the Highs gets compressed and the Lowend is almost untouched... so u'll get a real Bass-drive and Punch ! ... with the Auto Make up gain, u aint losse Volumne --> then i get thru my hardware L2 , or manual Gain u can achive a real Hot output !

check it out !

cheers

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by Reptil

Also use the sidechain. Or go for a compressor that has a "big" switch like the 1968 or 2500.

as said before you can use an eq and the sidechain. to preserve punchyness. this does not have to be bass, you can also use another freq curve, for example to preserve vocals or synthpads from pumping. I would put vocals on a different buss, like Darius suggested.

[passionmax]

What about the Avalon 747. It has eq in the box as well. I heard it is supposed to be very good

[rara114]

Originally Posted by superburtm

DJ's that don't understand signal flow drive me out of my fricking mind.

So True... I work at a nightclub here in Vegas, and its a challenge everytime... some guys don't care if they are slamming +22dbu from a Pioneer Mixer (which sounds like dogs*it) that it is going to sound like crap on an amplified system which in itself is introducing its own distortion.... artificially or induced....

We use a SteveDashAudio SDX3700, kinda like re-incarnation of the Urei 1620 mixer, but IMHO sounds warmer, smoother and louder....
The SDX3700 mixer rocks.

On Topic,

I'm on the same boat as far as Dance and HipHop stuff...

I would just like to add that you need to make your desicion based on what you are trying to accomplish and not so much the hype of any on particualr model. For dance music (vinyl) you do want to cut a nice hot record for club use so that your song will sound good on an amplified system with subs... and also to fit as much music as possible before transmitting on FM radio as your audio will have to modulated to FM for broadcast....

For me it was character, punch, glue, then finally loudness which is not done in the compressor...not the compressors job...duh... for loud you want something like a L3 or L2 hardware or Manley Slam! or similar.

So to truley answer your question you will need a good compressor for your application and then a strong, clean limiter.

I went Thermionic Culture Phoenix and Manley Slam!.

The idea here for was to have a certain signature sound...

[syra]

Can't believe the blue monster hasn't been mentioned yet...SMC-2B.

Not only compress (or not) your low end independently but simultaneously decide how much of it you want. Add also a great tube sound, the power to easily glue things and you have one of the most flexible pieces out there,

Btw, when I do "House" I usually run it almost like a limiter (10:1 very fast attack, release)

[Reptil]

mmmmm
yummie