Protools/Latency/Monitoring situation...please help...

[Poopants]

I have an 002R and I'm either getting a Mackie Onyx 800R or a Lucid 8824, and here's the situation, I can't really figure it out.

I want to record a drummer and have him hear himself as he's playing. I also want to compress/EQ to tape (well, to protools, you know what I mean). This poses a problem because there's no way around the latency thing. So I was thinking that I would get a cheap Behringer mixer to create a submix for him from a few of the mics, getting the signal before it enters the DAW.
This is the part I can't figure out. I don't want to put the signal through the Behringer and then into the DAW because I don't want that $hit near my chain. None of my pre's (3124+, Sytek) have inserts to send a copy of the signal (if I only had the 3124MB+!). I was looking at the Onyx 800R and figured that I'd just get (or make) a DSUB cable for the line outputs and that would be that, but now I'm smacking myself in the head realizing that the outputs are probably after the DAW anyway, so the issue is still there.
Is there any way to do what I'm trying to do without compromising the audio in any way? I mean other people must have this same problem.

[gsharp]

The lineouts are pre-DAW just like the dig outs are pre-DAW. There's no way for the audio to get from the DAW back into the 800R to feed the line outs post DAW. The output of the pre's shows up at the line outs and the optical outs simultaneously. So, that's your answer. Dig out into the 002, line out into the beringer.

g

p.s. did the fatso pics ever come through?

[Poopants]

aahh okay good. That works then.
Yes, I got the photos, I will send the money out tomorrow if my bank transfer goes through. If not tomorrow then def. Tues.
Thanks for the info!

-Ben

[Bishbashbosh]

If you're just tracking drums, why not use Protools in low latency mode? That's kinda what it's for!

[gsharp]

cool. thumbsup

[LightningBefore]

so would this be the same way i'd feed a furman headphone amp into protools? or how do i get it back in if all my line ins are taken? Assistance would be much appreciated

[gsharp]

could you give a little more info about your setup? you're recording the output of the headphone amp? what's going into the headphone amp?

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by Bishbashbosh

If you're just tracking drums, why not use Protools in low latency mode? That's kinda what it's for!

Because I'm tracking through plugins, and the plugins are disabled when you use low latency mode.

[zimv20]

Originally Posted by Poopants

Because I'm tracking through plugins

why? the plugins don't affect what's going "to tape", only what you hear. is it necessary for the drummer to hear compression during tracking?

[Bishbashbosh]

Exactly!
To be honest I think people get too tied up on what goes into monitoring. It's not neccesarily a finished mix you want to hear when tracking. You just need the correct information in a clear and uncluttered way.

Personally when I'm tracking (as a drummer) all I need to hear of the kit is the kick - everything else normally comes through to me acoustically (unless the engineer insists on running the mix really loud).

Are you talking about recording PLUG-IN eq and compression to tape..... If so, there's not a lot of point really.... Unless for some reason you're desperate to save DSP..... In which case, save the money you're going to spend on a mixer, and get a quicker computer!

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by zimv20

why? the plugins don't affect what's going "to tape", only what you hear. is it necessary for the drummer to hear compression during tracking?

No the problem is that since I'm using plugins the *drummer* is going to be hearing himself with a delay due to the latency. It doesn't matter if I hear latency. I just want to get the best performance out of him and figured he might have more finesse if he could hear himself through the mics. This particular drummer needs to really hear how hard he's hitting things. It also will allow me to maybe fool him into hitting the cymbals softer and the toms and snare louder by having the cymbals louder in his cans and the toms softer. It would be nice if you could run plugins with no latency though so he could hear how his drums sound after the processing while he's playing-it might get him more into it. But such is the situation working with a DAW.

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by Bishbashbosh

Exactly!
To be honest I think people get too tied up on what goes into monitoring. It's not neccesarily a finished mix you want to hear when tracking. You just need the correct information in a clear and uncluttered way.

Personally when I'm tracking (as a drummer) all I need to hear of the kit is the kick - everything else normally comes through to me acoustically (unless the engineer insists on running the mix really loud).

Are you talking about recording PLUG-IN eq and compression to tape..... If so, there's not a lot of point really.... Unless for some reason you're desperate to save DSP..... In which case, save the money you're going to spend on a mixer, and get a quicker computer!

No there actually is a lot of point to compressing to tape in your DAW, maybe more so than eq'ing but that's good too if you do it lightly. When you compress signals that have already been recorded to a DAW or any digital medium you are bringing up the digital noise floor, which sucks, and means that the quieter signals you are bringing up are at a lower resolution. When you compress going in you're printing more of your signal in that higher resolution area, and the quieter signals that are being brought up from the compression are being brought up from the live source, not from an already printed signal. I hope I explained that clearly enough...I'm not an expert just yet

[Faderjockey]

OKay...But if your using plugins and not hardware, You are already digital when you go into the converters. So I understand the theory about compressing going in...I did it too myself when I first got my Mix system. But using hardware would be of more benefit. I'd think the Sytek and 3124 should be fine for getting tones....

How's your room and mics.... Maybe get use to tracking with out plugs. I stopped long ago. Because you get to the mix stage and realize the plugins were hidding some crap you could and should have fixed during tracking.

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by Bishbashbosh

Exactly!
To be honest I think people get too tied up on what goes into monitoring. It's not neccesarily a finished mix you want to hear when tracking. You just need the correct information in a clear and uncluttered way.

I know, this is for the benefit of the drummer, not me.

Personally when I'm tracking (as a drummer) all I need to hear of the kit is the kick - everything else normally comes through to me acoustically (unless the engineer insists on running the mix really loud).

Well actually the main reason I wanted to do it this way is because of the kick, the drummer plays really fast double kick parts and I want him to be able to hear himself better to tighten up. But also as I said, I want to try to subtly influence him to play cymbals quieter and toms louder.

Are you talking about recording PLUG-IN eq and compression to tape..... If so, there's not a lot of point really.... Unless for some reason you're desperate to save DSP..... In which case, save the money you're going to spend on a mixer, and get a quicker computer!

LOL I don't think saving the $60 I'm going to spend on a Behringer mixer is going to help me get a faster computer

When I say compress to tape though I mean lightly-you don't want to do something that sucks and you can't undo it. I've learned my lesson with that

[archtop]

the latency is not a deal breaker

[zimv20]

Originally Posted by Poopants

Well actually the main reason I wanted to do it this way is because of the kick, the drummer plays really fast double kick parts and I want him to be able to hear himself better to tighten up. But also as I said, I want to try to subtly influence him to play cymbals quieter and toms louder.

what i'm hearing is you want to give him a specific mix, which is fine, and you can do so w/ an outboard mixer. what i'm not getting is why you want to use compressor plugs to do this.

once you consider 1) it increases latency, and 2) the plug effects aren't even being recorded, why wouldn't you just scrap the idea?

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by Faderjockey

OKay...But if your using plugins and not hardware, You are
already digital when you go into the converters. So I understand the theory about
compressing going in...I did it too myself when I first got my Mix system. But using
hardware would be of more benefit. I'd think the Sytek and 3124 should be fine for
getting tones....

\
Hmm you are absolutely right, I don't know what I was thinking. I only recently
started compressing with plugs to tape, I guess the theory only applies to hardware
compressors. Wow I didn't think that one through did I
I think I will still track through plugs until I get enough hardware though, just to
save the processing power. I'd like to get a faster computer but don't have the dough
right now. If I had never discovered gearslutz I might have been able to afford it...
And yes, I love my 3124 and Sytek. I need maybe a neve clone or two (maybe even
a seventh circle kit?) and I'm set for the time being in terms of flavor.

How's your room and mics.... Maybe get use to tracking with out plugs. I stopped long
ago.

I don't really have a problem with tones or anything, again the only reason I tracked
through plugs was for the resolution thing and to save processing power.

Because you get to the mix stage and realize the plugins were hidding some
crap you could and should have fixed during tracking.

Yeah I agree, but I get sounds first and make sure everythings all good and then
strap on the plugins so I haven't really had that problem.

Anyway thanks for helping me realize my error...stupid mistake...

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by zimv20

what i'm hearing is you want to give him a specific mix, which is fine,
and you can do so w/ an outboard mixer. what i'm not getting is why you want to use
compressor plugs to do this.

once you consider 1) it increases latency, and 2) the plug effects aren't even being
recorded, why wouldn't you just scrap the idea?

You're misunderstanding, the plugins have nothing to do with the drummers mix aside
from the fact that they introduce latency, which means the drummers mix has
to get to him pre-DAW. My question was how to give him a mix pre-DAW without
introducing the submixer into the signal chain, but that's been resolved because the line
outs on the 800R are straight from the pres/line ins.

And the plugs *are* being recorded, thats the whole point, I track through them.
Now I've realized that half my reason for tracking through them was a
misconception, but thats not the point.

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by archtop

the latency is not a deal breaker

what do you mean by this?

[Faderjockey]

Not a problem....Hey maybe even pickup some cheap comps used...Like Alesis or project dbx crap...But only use it on the monitor side with the little mixer...That way what you have in Pro Tools is untouched...But he is hearing some processing on the monitor side...

It would give you that effect of having him play to something...And not screw with your Latency (timing) and not effect the clean signal you want to record...

[zimv20]

Originally Posted by Poopants

And the plugs *are* being recorded, thats the whole point, I track through them.

exactly which plug-ins are you "going to tape" with? most of 'em, when you arm the track, go into bypass.

are you saying that, after you record, you remove the plug-in and you hear the effect in the raw track? i am skeptical.

you are using PTLE, right?

edit: i'm testing it now; i have yet to find a plug that doesn't go into bypass mode when i arm the track.

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by Faderjockey

Not a problem....Hey maybe even pickup some cheap comps used...Like Alesis or project dbx crap...But only use it on the monitor side with the little mixer...That way what you have in Pro Tools is untouched...But he is hearing some processing on the monitor side...

It would give you that effect of having him play to something...And not screw with your Latency (timing) and not effect the clean signal you want to record...

I wonder what I said that made you two misunderstand...? I must not have phrased
things right.

I'm not neccessarily trying to compress anything in the drummers mix, I just want him to be able to hear himself in the cans. That was the only issue.

Now that the problem is solved, are there any relatively inexpensive compressors you (or anybody) could reccommend for tracking? I'm about to have the Fatso, that will likely be useful, but I'd like to add a few more compressors to my lineup. I'll get the distressor later on when I have the money, but are there any inexpensive compressors that would even be worth buying for this application? dBx 160A maybe (or too little flexibility?)
Thanks for the help!

[Faderjockey]

That's cool....Because now I got lost.

160a would work fine....For sure the EL8 when you get it.

Even RNC's work to tame things... NO color but helps with peaks.
Haven't tried the RNLA yet...I'd like to try it out.

I'm brain farting...trying to think of cheap stuff that's cool.
That's hard to do after my 10hr session today.

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by zimv20

exactly which plug-ins are you "going to tape" with? most of 'em, when you arm the track, go into bypass.

are you saying that, after you record, you remove the plug-in and you hear the effect in the raw track? i am skeptical.

you are using PTLE, right?

edit: i'm testing it now; i have yet to find a plug that doesn't go into bypass mode when i arm the track.

To record a plugin to tape you have to setup an aux track and an audio track. You set the input of the aux track to your source (mic, instrument, whatever) and the output of the aux to a bus, say bus 1. The plugin goes on the aux track. Then you set the input of the audio track to bus 1 and record arm it.

[zimv20]

Originally Posted by Poopants

To record a plugin to tape you have to setup an aux track and an audio track.

ahhh, i get what you're doing. you're just doing it in 1 step instead of 2.

this is the same as applying the plug through AudioSuite post-tracking, btw.

[superbee]

I recorded a session the other day and used some compression and EQ plugins. I did an experiment, I set up some Aux tracks and sent my signal to them and then out to the record enabled tracks. I did this in low latency mode in ProTools. It worked well!

Hope that helps.

Brian

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by zimv20

ahhh, i get what you're doing. you're just doing it in 1 step instead of 2.

this is the same as applying the plug through AudioSuite post-tracking, btw.

Not neccesarily, you can run the signal a little hotter without clipping in the daw because it's being compressed, where if you would have hit it at the same level without the comp it would have clipped and then AudioSuite can't help you.

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by superbee

I recorded a session the other day and used some compression and EQ plugins. I did an experiment, I set up some Aux tracks and sent my signal to them and then out to the record enabled tracks. I did this in low latency mode in ProTools. It worked well!

Hope that helps.

Brian

Really?? That works? Why would that work, in either case the signal is running through the plugins, which are the cause of the latency...what plugins were you using, maybe they weren't very processor intensive so the latency was negligible? Am I missing something here?

[zimv20]

Originally Posted by Poopants

Not neccesarily, you can run the signal a little hotter without clipping in the daw because it's being compressed, where if you would have hit it at the same level without the comp it would have clipped and then AudioSuite can't help you.

but all this is happening post a/d, which is the important part.

i don't understand what you mean by "running it hotter". do you mean while still in analog, or with the PT fader? because that PT fader is post-everything, you can record with that thing at negative infinity.

[superbee]

Originally Posted by Poopants

Really?? That works? Why would that work, in either case the signal is running through the plugins, which are the cause of the latency...what plugins were you using, maybe they weren't very processor intensive so the latency was negligible? Am I missing something here?

I just used the digirack compressor and a Waves Ren EQ, while I am sure there is some latency, it wasn't enough to notice while tracking. I did only have a couple of plugins on 2 tracks though, so maybe the latency would be worse if I had added more.

Also, every once in awhile, I'll have a vocalist who wants to track while hearing some verb in the headphones, so I'll set up an aux track with a verb plugin and send the recorded track out to that. That way I record a dry signal but the vocalist hears it wet.

B