TO ALL RESPECTED ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS

[MZK]

Hi, I'm 5 mounths in pre production making an electronic/hip hop/pop album
and I'm extreamly not happy with my sound that I set out to get!!!
I want much more saturation and I'M GETTING A VERY SLEEK CLEAN SOUND,
Just to give u an example of sound wise refernce ALBUMS: Depech mode Violator
peter Gabriel


here is my set up: Mac Dual proccesor running Logic 7 HAMMERFALL CARD
Apogee 8000
avalon m5(TOO CLEAN),737SP
1176LN,2 DISTRESSORS WITH BRITISH MODE
H3000SE,SPX 90,AFEX FILERS,ROLAND SPACE ECHO
ALL CONECTED THREW NUETRIX PATCH BAY
my stereo out is going into Yamaha O2r out 1-2
All my sounds are a mix of computer and live and mpc
mics are 57, 58 and akg C 414 B
QUESTION: why are the vocals and mixes thin sounding(CRYSTAL)
keep in mind I do place a vintage warmer on my
mix in the computer,and on my bus out to the
disstressors,AND EVENTUALY DUMP THE MIX
TO A TWEO TRACK ANALOG WITH DOLBY SR,

MORE STOMP BOXES!!!,WALDORF FILTERS,TUBE eq
Neve 1073
WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THANKS TO ALLL

[Gie-Sound]

Don't wanne P you off.... but with the tools you have, you should be able to do fine.
But remember: a good/fancy hammer does not make you a good carpenter.
A fancy kitchen with all the knives, herbs and fancy equipment doesn't make you a good cook. It's the same with mixing. (Mixing is just like cooking)
It's not about tools... It's what you do with them that counts.

[bunnerabb]

I'm not a big time, well respected AE, at all.

I can't really offer you any advice.

I have stuff worse than yours and my tracks are coming out pretty much like I want them to.

Mo' better gear is usually mo' better. I just advise people to use what they have until they hit a wall that can't be climbed unless they upgrade.

[Sui_City]

Sorry,

But unless I missed it, you don't mention what your monitoring chain looks like.

On one hand I agree with bunner, it's not always about the gear. But if your monitoring chain isn't up to snuff then you could be making decisions that are negatively affecting the mix.

[bunnerabb]

True.

As Slippy says; It's what your monitors MAKE you do and how you interact with them and perceive the mixes you do on them and how the mix translates to the consumer rigs, that is the cheese on the cracker.

[Lawrence]

If your vocal are "thin" as you say, do you hear that during mixing or does that come only through when you play it elsewhere? I agree with the people here who say you have monitoring problems.

If what you hear "out in the world" differs dramtically from what you hear in the studio then you've got major problems that no amount of mic pre's and stuff can fix.

How long you been mixing? Not this project but just in general?

Lawrence

[7 Hz]

Originally Posted by MZK

my stereo out is going into Yamaha O2r out 1-2...

mics are 57, 58 and akg C 414 B

IMHO, there are problems there. the 02R has a funny sound, not at all like a good analogue desk, and those three mics, whilst 'industry standard', are maybe not helping matters. The 414 in particular I find to be a cold and one dimentional microphone.

Try getting a better desk (analogue or digital) and try other microphones, something like a nice Gefell will give you more warmth and humanity.

[Jules]

Why not hire a pro engineer to work with you at home for a few days?

[bunnerabb]

Good investment, that.

Toss in some coffee and bacon rolls and you'll probably get some good tips, too.

[sdevino]

What's a bacon roll?

[bunnerabb]

This:



Pretty much what it says on the label.

[soundeslutz]

sorry man,
but if you cant do it with what you got maybe you shoul find something else to do

[Tibbon]

I'm not sure what advantage or purpose you are using the 02R for, but after running through rather nice apogee convertors, running into an O2R seems like a bit of maddness (via analogue I assume?).

Just me, but i'd sell the O2R if you are just using it as basically a monitoring sections and get something like a nice Avocet or other monitoring section.

You really should be able to get the right sound. Beware of things like 'Vintage Warmers' and other things that basically just add harmonic distortion to your signal at mix stage. Your mixing might be fine actually, but you are trying to master perhaps at the same time, which we would all like to be able to do, but few can do right. I'd send it off for mastering with someone great to get the second set of ears.

As long as things are clean, phase coherent, well panned, and dynamic, then you shouldn't worry about overall 'vibe' at the end that a Vintage Warmer would add, just mix until it sounds really punchy and then send it off for mastering to take care of the dynamics being perhaps too big at times.

You have the right equipment. Are you playing right? This is gonna sound stupid, but Peter has really good musicians working with him. I've worked with his keyboard tech and Tony Levin on occasion and they are amazing to be around.

If you want your bass to sound like PG, just hire Tony! Good musicians are worth every cent.

One thing I noticed about Tony's playing, which REALLY affects the way that PG sounds, is that he doesn't play as much as other bass players. He can really move but isn't concerned about hitting every 1/8 or 1/4 note. He accents things really well, which gives the songs massive dynamics. Bass playing non-stop can kill those songs if done wrong. His Musicman basses sound and play great, but i figure he could sound just as good with a cheap ibanez really.

Make sure your monitoring is set up right. It seems that you need perhaps to have more things there for listening and less for making sounds with really. Get a 2nd set of monitors (NS-10s), an aurotone, etc... Learn your room too! The sound coming out is more important than the sound coming in, or how you are processing it. I can make the EQ on a mackie board work better with GREAT monitoring than I can a Manley EQ work with really horrible monitoring on just about any track. You have to hear what you are doing.

Also you don't really have a 'great' vocal mic. The 414 works ok for a few vox ( i found one girl that it was oddly enough the only thing in the locker that worked ok on her). If the vox aren't right, maybe rent a U47 or whatever would be appropriate for the vox and use that for a few days. Renting equipment (or great borrowing) can really help out. You may also be finding that your singer doesn't have great studio (or any) chops when it comes down to dynamics and small detail.


The things that "make" PG and DM what they are (IMHO):

+ Great songs
+ Good recording (it helps, but isn't the factor)
+ Amazing playing
+ Listening
+ Playing less, listening and thinking more
+ Rock solid rhythm tracks
+ Amazing sense of arranging (esp for vox harmonies)

What won't make it is a ton of equipment that isn't being used well, or just piling up stuff. Attention to detail will rule. There's a reason that PG's last studio album took so long to come out (well multiple reasons, but it taking forever to record was one of them)

[airmate]

my suggestions:

- try harder (by far the most important thing)
- check your monitoring situation and fix some problems when necessary
- get a FATSO
- get rid of the 02r

(in this order)

[Reptil]

no no no
it is really simple
your gear is too GOOD
too hifi
too excellently modern quality

DEGRADE
12 bit downsampling crappy sampler mangling old mixer preamp overdrive stuff
PHAT is the word
sure you can get a fatso, but there is other ways

imagine you're in 1987
you make the newest crazy tracks
you have at your disposal the ultimate weapon, the pinnacle of technology:
an Oberheim DX and an EMU SP

[Reptil]

oh by the way:
respected?

[bunnerabb]

90% of everybody here, including the hobby horses, have way more useful kit than what was used to track and mix Brubeck's "take five".

Wake the f*ck up.

[kevinc]

Originally Posted by bunnerabb

True.

As Slippy says; It's what your monitors MAKE you do and how you interact with them and perceive the mixes you do on them and how the mix translates to the consumer rigs, that is the cheese on the cracker.

It was very enlightening talking to Slip about monitors one day on the chat. Back than he was saying he mostly uses HR824`s (if I`m remembering correctly) and that he thought my lowly KRK V8`s were decent speakers.

It made me realize I don`t need to buy $5000 speakers in order to get my mixes sounding good and if I did buy some I`d have to learn the ins and outs of them just like I would with a $1000 set.

I know my speakers well so why do I need new ones ?

[bunnerabb]

Slippy aint sellin' shit but his services.

Sort that, sort most of it.

[r0ck1r0ck2]

eat the mic....(use the 57)
throw the distressor on the insert...fuzz it....
eat the mic....
double track the vocals....
hold a martini glass while you sing.....point at the wall like you're in the rolling stones.....
try shaking your butt before you track

[bunnerabb]

Sure...

[djui5]

Maybe you should have someone else mix it?

[dsteve]

the most important part of the setup is ears -
if you don't have 'em you're wasting your time.

[cl516]

you can always get a sherman filterbank...

[syra]

Chill people....give the guy a break.

Its not that he's got no ears, or his monitoring sucks...he has no experience.

Keep doing what you're doing and listen to your favorite recordings as references. Listen carefully. Use your ears to discover the details and learn what each frequency does. If you work hard enough, you'll soon be able to see a huge progress in your sound. Then work some more, harder, years go by, you lose sleep, family and relationships, and when you're finally alone you can call yourself a darn good engineer.

Simple

[r0ck1r0ck2]

Originally Posted by syra

Years go by, you lose sleep, family and relationships, and when you're finally alone you can call yourself a darn good engineer.

Simple....

HA!!!
well put
didn't mention the pimples on your a$$

[picksail]

If I were only respected. Oh well...

Next

[raal]

really speaking, what jules said (hire a pro for awhile and watch what he does), and what syra said (listen carefully and hone your skills).

all the great engineers i know got there by watching, listening, an doing... it takes awhile. the more time you watch the A list guys do their thing, the more stuff sinks in. and the more time you spend doing it, the better you get. that simple.

speaking of 02Rs, have you heard the grammy winning/frank filipetti/james taylor record?

i'm in awe of alot of the guys that write on this forum. being in the room with a good AE is still like seeing 'magic' to me... like watching a guy like michael thompson play gtr in a session.

[A101]

Seems like you have a list of good gear… although I personally wouldn’t use Distressors on the mix bus.
Do you really trust your talent (ears)… if so what kind of environment are you mixing in?
Check out your mixing room acoustics and invest there first.

[Sqye]

Do any of your knobs go to 11?

A-HAH!!!!!!!!

Maybe THAT'S your problem