Would today's "crap" gear have been crap 40 years ago?

[Shiny Beast]

What would today's low-end stuff sound like to a studio engineer in 1970? Fire up your time machine, hide the LCD's, LED's and digital stuff, and
let them listen. For a few examples, I think they:

- Would have been blown away by an Alesis Midiverb.
- Would have been very impressed with a Mackie 1604VLZ or a dbx 266. Though maybe not so much with the construction.
- Would have been meh about an MXL condenser (but at ~$40 in 1970 dollars, would have found somewhere to use it)
- Would have thought any nearfield smaller than a JBL 4310 was a joke and wouldn't listen to it anyway!
- etc... fill in your own.

So is our low-end gear really crap, or are we spoiled by today's phenomenal sound quality for relatively low $$$?

[piano]

Well, it would be like taking a TV dinner back to the middle ages - even the king would not have such good food.

The vintage we love was the top of the line stuff back then. Not only was it expensive, it was fairly rare to find.

I think digital audio would have stunned people back then. When I heard my first ADAT, I thought the talent was still singing in the vocal room. Again, tape was a pain in the ass to work with compared to digital today.

But.... back then you could actually make money opening a studio.

[AllAboutTone]

Our low end stuff can not touch anything back in the 70s, the Tape Machine RULED and still does, I just cannot afford to fool with one or pay to have it kept up.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by piano

Well, it would be like taking a TV dinner back to the middle ages - even the king would not have such good food.

The vintage we love was the top of the line stuff back then. Not only was it expensive, it was fairly rare to find.

I think digital audio would have stunned people back then. When I heard my first ADAT, I thought the talent was still singing in the vocal room. Again, tape was a pain in the ass to work with compared to digital today.

But.... back then you could actually make money opening a studio.

+1

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

Our low end stuff can not touch anything back in the 70s, the Tape Machine RULED and still does, I just cannot afford to fool with one or pay to have it kept up.

Lots of perspective missing from this post.

Just because stuff is old doesn't mean it was good! In terms of noise, distortion etc most of the old stuff can't come close to some of the budget mic pres out today.

Lots of bands that CAN afford tape (about half of the projects I work on right now are tracked to tape... in fact I'm dumping reels into PT as I type!) eventually make it into PT for editing/mix-down. It's all about using what works.

Recording has not always been the quest for "color" perpetuated by websites like this... in fact back then the quest was for clean.

It's unbelievable how brainwashed some of the people on GS are about how important the gear is in the sound.

I have a feeling a lot of bands/producers would have killed for access to some of the modern production techniques/gear/plugins etc.

This is ESPECIALLY true of modern live sound engineering... even the most budget speakers & gear are 1000x better than the "vintage" stuff.

[mattg082]

I feel yah man gearslutz is kinda going overboard with what will make you sound good and anything mid range sounds like crap. Tech is obviously better today so I don't understand this way of thinking. One might be able to dispute the analog digital side but who's to say a m-audio octane isn't better than some of the stuff the stones recorded on back in the day and even the beatles as well as elvis and all those early sun country records being put out.

In my personal studio and life time I'm never really been at the mid range too much I went from digi002 pres which I think are pretty low on the scale but usable to a rosetta, api512c and great river. Do I hear a difference in my recordings yes I do. Things do sound like they would be ready to go out the door if this was 8 years ago and what I was trying to go for. I still think though you can get just of a nice sound with a decent mic and middle of the line pres... now you could debate whether if you took those middle of the line pres and ran them through analog or digital what would come out sounding better and that's more of the kind of disscuions i would like to see if people are going to keep going on about that crap!

[riverrun]

What we have now is nothing short of amazing. The personal computer and the web!

[msmith]

Well, with this being such a generalized type of question, it's hard not to have generalizations for answers... That said, I believe that "good" has always been good, and "bad" has always been bad.
While we do have many more available options at various price points now, there were still plenty of options back then. In 1970, a U47 could have been up to 20+ years old. That would have been vintage at the time! The engineers that were using them then would have had the same mindset as today. It was either "good" or "bad". A 20 year old tube mic would have exhibited(most likely) more noise and technical imperfections than a new(at that time) transistor microphone. The engineer would have been totally aware of this.
My point is, there was not a time when professional audio engineers were not discerning about the audio that they worked with.(at least the good ones)

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Mike Brown

+1





Lots of perspective missing from this post.

Just because stuff is old doesn't mean it was good! In terms of noise, distortion etc most of the old stuff can't come close to some of the budget mic pres out today.

Lots of bands that CAN afford tape (about half of the projects I work on right now are tracked to tape... in fact I'm dumping reels into PT as I type!) eventually make it into PT for editing/mix-down. It's all about using what works.

Recording has not always been the quest for "color" perpetuated by websites like this... in fact back then the quest was for clean.

It's unbelievable how brainwashed some of the people on GS are about how important the gear is in the sound.

I have a feeling a lot of bands/producers would have killed for access to some of the modern production techniques/gear/plugins etc.

This is ESPECIALLY true of modern live sound engineering... even the most budget speakers & gear are 1000x better than the "vintage" stuff.

This is so TRUE, although QSC was real high on the list but in the past few years has ruin there name with the RMX amps, that is real sh*t. Peavey is even better than those amps, did I say Peavey? wow.

Now on the recording end I would have NOT mentioned that engineers would have killed for Plugins ? o my, give me a break.
Plugs are one of the worse things that could have ever been made and its showing everyday that engineers are going to hardware more and more, its simple what you pay for.

[WVUtubadude]

I definitely think people would have been amazed by any of today's low end electronics 40 years ago and not just audio stuff.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

Now on the recording end I would have NOT mentioned that engineers would have killed for Plugins ? o my, give me a break.
Plugs are one of the worse things that could have ever been made and its showing everyday that engineers are going to hardware more and more, its simple what you pay for.

You don't think producers engineers and artists would appreciate COMPLETELY automatable eq's, compressors, instruments etc?

I don't know ANY artist/band/producer which is heading towards more hardware. Everyone is heading towards software from my point of view.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Shiny Beast

What would today's low-end stuff sound like to a studio engineer in 1970? Fire up your time machine, hide the LCD's, LED's and digital stuff, and
let them listen. For a few examples, I think they:

- Would have been blown away by an Alesis Midiverb.
- Would have been very impressed with a Mackie 1604VLZ or a dbx 266. Though maybe not so much with the construction.
- Would have been meh about an MXL condenser (but at ~$40 in 1970 dollars, would have found somewhere to use it)
- Would have thought any nearfield smaller than a JBL 4310 was a joke and wouldn't listen to it anyway!
- etc... fill in your own.

So is our low-end gear really crap, or are we spoiled by today's phenomenal sound quality for relatively low $$$?

I wasn't involved in studio recording then (nor would I be for about another decade) but I was certainly gear interested at the time.

Yeah... it's a mixed bag. I'll agree on that particular.

The Mackie would, as you note, probably have impressed as far as sound and specs go but been the source of much eye rolling with regard to construction. That said, adjusted for inflation it would have cost the same as a couple of fader assemblies on one of the custom boards of the era. Give or take. Most any decent digital 'verb would have impressed. (Although I remember the first digital reverb I used, in the mid-80s, from Yamaha, of all people, really was not a very musical or pleasant sounding unit. So, maybe I'm wrong on that count. Still, there was other stuff out at the time, that was a lot better sounding.)

Having come up on JBL 4311's, I couldn't wait to get away from them. That said, I've certainly used worse. But they always hit my ear wrong.


Thing is, the best gear back then produced some very good results.

Affordable gear back then was... not even affordable. And often none too sharp on the fi front.

So where things have really, really changed over the last few decades is in the affordable gear category.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Mike Brown

It's unbelievable how brainwashed some of the people on GS are about how important the gear is in the sound.

thumbsup

[nightscope]

Originally Posted by Shiny Beast

1970?

I could care less about the gear.

The music?

ABC - The Jackson 5
Abraxas - Santana
After the Gold Rush - Neil Young
All Things Must Pass - George Harrison
American Beauty - Grateful Dead
Atom Heart Mother - Pink Floyd
Band of Gypsys - Jimi Hendrix
The Best of the Wailers - The Wailers
The Big O - Roy Orbison
Bitches Brew - Miles Davis
Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath
Bridge over Troubled Water - Simon & Garfunkel
Candles in the Rain - Melanie
Chicago - Chicago
Chunga's Revenge - Frank Zappa
Déjà Vu - Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young
Diana Ross - Diana Ross (debut)
Easy Action - Alice Cooper
Elton John - Elton John
Emerson, Lake and Palmer - Emerson, Lake & Palmer (debut)
Eric Burdon Declares "War" - Eric Burdon & War
The End of an Ear - Robert Wyatt
Fire and Water - Free
Fun House - The Stooges
Gula Matari - Quincy Jones
Hawkwind - Hawkwind (debut)
Hello, I'm Johnny Cash - Johnny Cash
Highway - Free
His Band and the Street Choir - Van Morrison
I Walk the Line - Johnny Cash
James Gang Rides Again - James Gang
The J. Geils Band - The J. Geils Band (debut)
John Barleycorn Must Die - Traffic
John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band - John Lennon
Kristofferson - Kris Kristofferson (debut)
Ladies of the Canyon - Joni Mitchell
Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs - Derek and the Dominoes
Led Zeppelin III - Led Zeppelin
Let It Be - The Beatles
Live Album - Grand Funk Railroad
Live at Leeds - The Who
Loaded - The Velvet Underground
Looking On - The Move
The Man Who Sold The World - David Bowie
McCartney - Paul McCartney (solo debut)
Moondance - Van Morrison
Morrison Hotel - The Doors
New Morning - Bob Dylan
Paranoid - Black Sabbath
Pendulum - Creedence Clearwater Revival
A Question of Balance - The Moody Blues
Rides Again - The James Gang
Self Portrait - Bob Dylan
Sex Machine - James Brown
Stage Fright - The Band
Sunflower - The Beach Boys
Supertramp - Supertramp
Sweet Baby James - James Taylor
Tea for the Tillerman - Cat Stevens
That's the Way It Is - Elvis Presley
Things Ain't What They Used to Be - Ella Fitzgerald
This Girl's In Love With You - Aretha Franklin
Time and a Word - Yes
Trespass - Genesis
A Tribute to Jack Johnson - Miles Davis
Tumbleweed Connection - Elton John
12 Songs - Randy Newman
(Untitled) - The Byrds
Very 'eavy... Very 'umble - Uriah Heep (debut)
Vintage Violence - John Cale
Watertown - Frank Sinatra
Weasels Ripped My Flesh - The Mothers of Invention
Wishbone Ash - Wishbone Ash
Woodstock: Music from the Original Soundtrack
Workingman's Dead - Grateful Dead

A good year!! thumbsup

ns

[camus]

Some perspective from one who was actually there:

Bob Olhsson - was an engineer at Motown starting from the 60s. The quote comes from Tape Op magazine. The interview is by Philip Stevenson, and it ran as Nowhere To Run - Bob Olhsson, Magic And The Motown Sound. (I suspect the guy mentioned below to be Bruce, not Doug, Botnick.)

Well here’s a classic tape op interview question for you: how do you feel about digital?

Frustrated. (laughs) There's so many great things about it and yet - there was a thing at the AES called "When Vinyl Ruled" - this was incredible. I hope to heaven that they let them do it again but I can see how a lot of manufacturers would not let them do it again.

They set up a state of the art 1962 control room and played back a bunch of old three-track safety masters from that era. The sound destroyed everything at the show. I mean, it was a no-brainer better than anything we're doing now, it's sickening. And at one point, Doug Botnik, who used to be at Sunset Sound turned to me and said, "Man I remember the first time I tried to do a session on a transistor board I wanted to slit my wrists." (laughs).

[Chromalord]

crap is crap, but is qualified and quantified by the user

[doug hazelrigg]

On paper, even the cheaper gear of today out performs the expensive gear of yesterday. And yet... there's something missing. There are many opinions about exactly what is missing. And there you are

[henge]

Originally Posted by Mike Brown

I don't know ANY artist/band/producer which is heading towards more hardware. Everyone is heading towards software from my point of view.

I'm not buying anymore EQ or Comp plugs and buying more hardware. Seriously!

[zapsmith9]

I wonder *exactly* what instruments & hardware Brian Wilson and George Martin had their hands on 40 years ago......

[Shiny Beast]

A good year!! thumbsup

Wow. That list covers many albums that I can sincerely describe as "life altering" for me.

After the Gold Rush -
All Things Must Pass - Band of Gypsys - Bitches Brew - Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs - Live at Leeds...

Those, plus Trout Mask Replica in '69... just wow. Am I an old fart to think we'll never see a year's worth of music at that level again?

[Shiny Beast]

"Man I remember the first time I tried to do a session on a transistor board I wanted to slit my wrists."

Yeah, those 1081's are so painful to listen to...

[Savagery]

I think recording technique is a much bigger issue... it used to be that tons of time, effort and money were spent on the studio room, mic placement, instrument choice, etc- the 'basics', and that's not as much the case now. Also, there was a job description titled "arranger" which has a much bigger impact on the sound than people might think. All that space, air, clarity, depth that people yearn for? Arrangement.

Fact is you put the wrecking crew in a world class studio with a great engineer and producer, playing a well written and carefully arranged song through the best equipment of the day and you will get magic. It's the human element and it CAN NOT be replaced with machinery. Many times there isn't room in the recording budget for all that anymore, which is a shame to say the least.

I would love to bring a digital rig to some of those sessions and record alongside them... honestly I bet everyone there in the control room would have preferred the fidelity of digital, myself included. Music of that calibre doesn't need coloration to sound sweet.

[MikeyMike]

Yesterday's engineers would of been amazed at the affordablility and compact size of the gear today. They would have been apalled at the sound of todays lifeless, hearablly disgusting music with no substance, longevity or mojoless sound. They would also be highly upset of the lack of real musicians recording music.

[rcb4t2]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

Now on the recording end I would have NOT mentioned that engineers would have killed for Plugins ? o my, give me a break.
Plugs are one of the worse things that could have ever been made and its showing everyday that engineers are going to hardware more and more, its simple what you pay for.

Dude this is a joke - I fully get the idea of analog mojo etc., but to have the tools for production and mixing that we have now in such a easy, affordable format is a God-send - it's way more important how you choose to use it.

Originally Posted by camus

Some perspective from one who was actually there: (Bob Olhsson article)

The interview you quoted was from 2001 - irrelevant to me in today's technology market. 9 years might as well be 90 by standard development timelines. All respect to Mr. Olhsson (really) but it's outdated info.

Originally Posted by Savagery

I think recording technique is a much bigger issue... it used to be that tons of time, effort and money were spent on the studio room, mic placement, instrument choice, etc- the 'basics', and that's not as much the case now. Also, there was a job description titled "arranger" which has a much bigger impact on the sound than people might think. All that space, air, clarity, depth that people yearn for? Arrangement.

Fact is you put the wrecking crew in a world class studio with a great engineer and producer, playing a well written and carefully arranged song through the best equipment of the day and you will get magic. It's the human element and it CAN NOT be replaced with machinery. Many times there isn't room in the recording budget for all that anymore, which is a shame to say the least.

I would love to bring a digital rig to some of those sessions and record alongside them... honestly I bet everyone there in the control room would have preferred the fidelity of digital, myself included. Music of that calibre doesn't need coloration to sound sweet.

I agree completely with this - talented musicianship and some ****ing respect for your craft will shine through any medium.

[AllAboutTone]

I will argue all day/anyday plugins vs Hardware.
I have yet to hear a compressor in the plugin field that can produce what a API, A Designs, SSL, Smart or any other high end gear out there does.
Same goes for the EQ world as well.
Next thing I will hear is someone has a plugin pre that sounds better than a 512, MA5 etc.
If you have real ears and are serious about your tone, it want be coming from a plug. << that could be a signature so don't steal it.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Peacock

The cheap gear today is way way better than the cheap gear of the early 80's when I started recording.

The Mackie VLZ would have blown away the hobby semi pro recorder during the early 80's.

Yes on the noise floor/headroom but no for depth tone and warmness.

[lagavulin16]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

I will argue all day/anyday plugins vs Hardware.
I have yet to hear a compressor in the plugin field that can produce what a API, A Designs, SSL, Smart or any other high end gear out there does.
Same goes for the EQ world as well.
Next thing I will hear is someone has a plugin pre that sounds better than a 512, MA5 etc.
If you have real ears and are serious about your tone, it want be coming from a plug. << that could be a signature so don't steal it.

At some point, potentially in the next 5-10 years, don't you think that may no longer be the case?

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Savagery

I think recording technique is a much bigger issue... it used to be that tons of time, effort and money were spent on the studio room, mic placement, instrument choice, etc- the 'basics', and that's not as much the case now. Also, there was a job description titled "arranger" which has a much bigger impact on the sound than people might think. All that space, air, clarity, depth that people yearn for? Arrangement.

Fact is you put the wrecking crew in a world class studio with a great engineer and producer, playing a well written and carefully arranged song through the best equipment of the day and you will get magic. It's the human element and it CAN NOT be replaced with machinery. Many times there isn't room in the recording budget for all that anymore, which is a shame to say the least.

[...]

Much truth above.

[doug hazelrigg]

Originally Posted by MikeyMike

Yesterday's engineers would of been amazed at the affordablility and compact size of the gear today. They would have been apalled at the sound of todays lifeless, hearablly disgusting music with no substance, longevity or mojoless sound. They would also be highly upset of the lack of real musicians recording music.

Funny, that's what their elders thought about THEIR music

Nothing really ever changes

[Carlos Santos]

Anybody from 40 years ago that have a open mind have to be amazed by todays Reality. and it's impossible to imagine how they 'd react to this technology in that time (40 years ago).

It's a natural way. We use our creativity every day to create a new way to do things.

It's not about the best way, the best sound, or even the more appropriated way... it's human nature, we need to use creativity ad it involve trying and developing different tools ...

We just can't use forever the same Mic pre, or any Hardware unit or plugin just because it sounds good, or in some point some one thought "It's the Best !". A true artist are always looking and appreciating a new idea, a new color, a different movement , texture... and it'll never Stop.

If you have a chance of work in a great Room , with a lot of nice Hardware that you like, with the best computer, or tape machine or...Great ! try to record the best musicians, bands that you can.

If you don't have those tools, Use what you have. I don't think it'll be getting in your way to achieve a great sound . We never had so many Options : )

[ProducerBoy]

Originally Posted by henge

I'm not buying anymore EQ or Comp plugs and buying more hardware. Seriously!

Same here. I don't know why people feel it's going to be one or the other. There's a place for both. Technically, always will be.