acoustic guitar stereo miking

[nigeldaddy]

generally speaking, if you were to mike an acoustic with one mic at the twelfth fret, and one at the bridge, and you had one LDC and one ribbon, which mic would you put where? i know there are no "rules" just want to hear other peoples reasoning.

[amishsixstringe]

Since you asked for OPINIONS here's mine. I hate stereo acoustic guitars. I think they sound much more intimate as a single mono instrument right up the middle. If it's a rock song with drums and other types of mess and there's an acoustic guitar with no electric guitars, I MIGHT stereo mic it, but I would probably double track and pan hard. Panning stereo mics with a similar source clogs up so much stereo and frequency space.

If I was mixing a track where the engineer tracked 2 mics ( I am doing that very thing right now) I would

A). Blend the 2 mics together if I can get them in phase and send them to a mono bus.

or

B). Pick which track fits the song better and mute the other one.

You asked.

Neil

[nigeldaddy]

Originally Posted by amishsixstringe

Since you asked for OPINIONS here's mine. I hate stereo acoustic guitars. I think they sound much more intimate as a single mono instrument right up the middle. If it's a rock song with drums and other types of mess and there's an acoustic guitar with no electric guitars, I MIGHT stereo mic it, but I would probably double track and pan hard. Panning stereo mics with a similar source clogs up so much stereo and frequency space.

If I was mixing a track where the engineer tracked 2 mics ( I am doing that very thing right now) I would

A). Blend the 2 mics together if I can get them in phase and send them to a mono bus.

or

B). Pick which track fits the song better and mute the other one.

You asked.

Neil

i typically use acoustics for "texture" (jeff lynne, anyone?) in pop rock songs so you won't get an argument out of me as far as mono miking goes. way more practical and realistic in that kind of setting. however, i just picked up a ridiculously great sounding Martin HD35 and thought it would be nice to try and capture its "full majesty" so to speak, w/some gentle stereo miking, and a vocal right up the middle on a simple 3 track song- just the guitar and voice. getting back to my post- eventually i'll try both position combinations with the mics for myself, but these days my windows of opportunity to record w/mics come down to when my wife leaves the house w/the kids. this usually gives me a whopping hour and a half at best to have a silent house to record in. so if the majority of the slutz recommend putting the ribbon on the fretboard, and the LDC near the bridge, i guess i'd try that first in the interest not wasting two thirds of my time with a/b experimentation. guess i'm just looking for a quick, "instant gratification" setup as a starting point. then again, i HAVE thought of mixing them to mono to create an "idealized" guitar sound. but even doing that, there's still the issue of which mic to put where...

[Teddy Ray]

heres what one of my heroes had to say about recording Acoustic guitars

Jay Bennett(RIP, Ex-Wilco, Titanic Love Affair)


Me: Jay, great album, Sir. Great sounds. Id love to know how you approach micing the guitar, vocals, etc.. compression vs no compression...

Again, love the album. Keep up the good work, ill give you a holler monday.


Jay:

Hey Ted, thanks for the words, I appreciate it! Hope all is well with your band and recording...so..
FINALLY, some easy questions. thanks, very direct ...you will get much out of me, if you continue framing your questions in this manner.

best overall mic ever AT 4050, hands down...nothing it can't do...and it's cheap, which plays into my equation here...

VOX MIKE: I love the blue mouse...a 414 can be good, but has TONS of (annoying?) high end...SM7 (not sm57) is great ROCK vocal...also perfect when band is live in room with vocalist or for folks with low voices...

KICK drum...have to admit,...haven't found one that does the trick every time...sennheiser made some pretty cheap thing a few years ago, that was GREAT for rock drums...i WISH I knew the answer to this...I mean, I make do...and have tried all the standards...but "the one" alludes me.

ACOUSTIC GTR technique---one high quality condenser at 15th ish fret ( where body and neck meet) pointed flat at fret board....4 inches away ?...second mic, a "personality" mic, I use an old sony c37 p (now, this is a very rare and expensive "personality" mic, but you don't need to go that far)..this one points at bridge...from below or above, but not straight on...again 4" away...I use a good SOLID STATE pre...Amek 9098...one of the few applications where I will go fo ss over tube...put the low end roll off on the pre...check for phase between two mics...you will not notice a totally in phase vs totally out of phase thing, it will be more like...which one sounds better, a matter of taste, not right or wrong...

Then i go through a pair of API 550's (4 band parametric)...boost something in 800 to 1.2K...and then 2.5 K as well...the high and low of the EQ I usually don't touch

Then the perfect compressor, is a tube tech stereo ..i forget model number..it just interfaces with ApI's so well...I always EQ pre compression when recording...in many cases it doesn't matter, BUT in this one it does..

could go on for hours about this...hope this gets you started...i know I'm talking about some pretty expensive gear here,...and there are other ways to do it...starting form that mic set up (which is the crucial thing)

ALSO...play a good sounding acoustic..with broken in (NOT NEW) strings (this is a big mistake people make)...mid 60's gison small to medium bodies are the best...stay away from things with tons of low, and tons of shimmery high ( unless u r in nashvillle)

NEVER mike the sound hole...

love Jay...hope that helps

BTW..Jay's last official release (Whatever happened I apologize) is available here for free download(legit)

you can hear his genius there..

Jay Bennett | Whatever Happened I Apologize | Acoustic Rock

[mikethedrummer]

4" seems awful close, but in a good way. My problem would be the artist shifting way too much while playing. I rarely see very experienced studio musicians who understand things like the proximity effect.

I remember seeing a video where yngwie malmsteen had an acoustic on a stand ready to go so all he had to do was swing his electric onto his back.

I'll have to try close micing myself next time I'm recording something acoustic, could be pretty stellar.


To the OP, check out which mic sounds better facing the body and maybe consider X/Y using the better mic facing the hole. Place the cross point anywhere between the 12 and where the neck meets the body.

[guitarmax_99]

I love stereo guitar! However, I'm a fan of using a matched pair of SDC's. I used to mic in stereo with an SDC (on the neck) and a LDC (on the lower bout). Now though, I've changed my technique up a bit. I've started using a matched pair of SDC's on the upper bout (one north and one south of the fret board where it meets the body). I like this because the sound coming off that part of the guitar isn't as boomy as the lower bout. Furthermore, since both mics are picking up very similar sources the stereo image isn't "lopsided" in terms of tone.

Just for fun, I'm attaching a file of something I recorded recently using the above techinque. This is a guitar that I converted to a baritone guitar last year. I kinda liked the way it came out.

[Shaft]

Originally Posted by guitarmax_99

I love stereo guitar! However, I'm a fan of using a matched pair of SDC's. I used to mic in stereo with an SDC (on the neck) and a LDC (on the lower bout). Now though, I've changed my technique up a bit. I've started using a matched pair of SDC's on the upper bout (one north and one south of the fret board where it meets the body). I like this because the sound coming off that part of the guitar isn't as boomy as the lower bout. Furthermore, since both mics are picking up very similar sources the stereo image isn't "lopsided" in terms of tone.

Just for fun, I'm attaching a file of something I recorded recently using the above techinque. This is a guitar that I converted to a baritone guitar last year. I kinda liked the way it came out.

That sounded very sweet--nice. Nice playing too.

I'm curious--mics and preamps?

Thx, and great job, guitarmax_99.

[midnightsun]

Sound on Sound magizine recently published a nice feature on your very topic. I think that you can access it on lin e.

A similar topic was recently discussed here at GS and there were some great posts.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...-new-post.html

Originally Posted by nigeldaddy

generally speaking, if you were to mike an acoustic with one mic at the twelfth fret, and one at the bridge, and you had one LDC and one ribbon, which mic would you put where? i know there are no "rules" just want to hear other peoples reasoning.

[kojak]

Typically I'll take a LDC approx. 6" or so away...placed between the bridge and bottom of the guitar, but pointed around the 12th fret (make small adjustments to taste), and then a SDC up towards the nut, pointed sort of down the neck at perhaps the 4th fret, again 5-6" away, to pick up transients and whatnot. Then blend either mono (check phase!) if it's in a medium or large mix, or pan slightly left and right (maybe 20% each way) if it's a more stripped down affair, to give a little sense of space. Usually I end up using 70-80% of the LDC, and just blending in the other mic for some top end sheen and whatnot.

Also, I'd like to reiterate the suggestion to not use brand spanking new strings...I like to play them for an hour or two to take that really high end bite out of them and let them settle on the guitar a little.

Best of luck, cheers

[guitarmax_99]

Originally Posted by Shaft

That sounded very sweet--nice. Nice playing too.

I'm curious--mics and preamps?

Thx, and great job, guitarmax_99.

I knew someone was gonna ask that... Well, I did this last year, and I have to confess that my gear was far from top notch...

- Two Rode NT-5's
- The preamps on my MBox-2.

[hihello]

I like to place a darker mic (ribbon) on the bridge end picking up the low end panned L and something brighter on the neck panned R. XY seems to make more sense to me though, the slightest move from the player can throw off your stereo balance.

[Shaft]

Originally Posted by guitarmax_99

I knew someone was gonna ask that... Well, I did this last year, and I have to confess that my gear was far from top notch...

- Two Rode NT-5's
- The preamps on my MBox-2.

Well, all the more impressive then, eh?!?

No doubt that, performance and recording skill trump uber-expensive gear.

[rcb4t2]

I dunno I've always disliked the idea of using two really close mics to each get half of the tone... ("one for body, one for strumming" etc etc) I never enjoy my results when I take this approach. I prefer one mic 3-6 feet back with a good player on a good guitar in a good room. If any of those three elements are missing then resort to regular close-up techniques, I guess, but I could never get into it.

[guitarmax_99]

Originally Posted by Shaft

Well, all the more impressive then, eh?!?

No doubt that, performance and recording skill trump uber-expensive gear.

Very true! Very true!

[guitarmax_99]

Originally Posted by rcb4t2

I prefer one mic 3-6 feet back with a good player on a good guitar in a good room.

What kind of mic works with that kind of distance?

[rkopald]

Originally Posted by guitarmax_99

...I'm attaching a file of something I recorded recently using the above techinque. This is a guitar that I converted to a baritone guitar last year. I kinda liked the way it came out.

First of all, great sounding clip! Fantastic.
Now the question: How did you convert your guitar to a baritone? New neck???

[guitarmax_99]

Originally Posted by rkopald

First of all, great sounding clip! Fantastic.
Now the question: How did you convert you guitar to a baritone? New neck???

Well, all I did was swap the strings for significantly heavier gauges and tune it lower. Now the lowest gauge is a .60 (where the Low "E" String Goes). So from low to high I use the following gauges:

.60, .50, .40, .30, .24, 16

It isn't a true baritone guitar (for that it would need a longer scale neck). But I can tune the low E String to a B and it has enough tension to sound pretty good. Of course everything else gets tuned relatively down as well. It's got a really warm/rich tone to it IMHO.

[Oli_W]

I'd definitely go for MS, about 2 foot back, looking towards 12th fret.

You'll have the bright precision of the condenser with variable warmth and width of the ribbon (which I presume is fig8).

[Oli_W]

Originally Posted by guitarmax_99

I knew someone was gonna ask that... Well, I did this last year, and I have to confess that my gear was far from top notch...

- Two Rode NT-5's
- The preamps on my MBox-2.

Gorgeous clip!

You play really well, and thats a nice sounding room too! Clip sounded a little left-heavy though...?

[guitarmax_99]

Originally Posted by Oli_W

Gorgeous clip!

You play really well, and thats a nice sounding room too! Clip sounded a little left-heavy though...?

Thanks for the kind words.

I guess the clip is a little left heavy. I went back and looked at the meters and they are tremendously close. I'm wondering why that is the case...

[Audio Hombre]

Originally Posted by amishsixstringe

I hate stereo acoustic guitars.

+1 sure there are exceptions but more often than not i prefer a well recorded mono acoustic

[Mr. Light]

I've never gotten a good stereo sound from up close on an acoustic. My goto method is to put a mic just below the bridge, one on the 12th fret (both in mono) and then a pair of room mics 20 feet or so off, facing the floor, about 2ft apart and 6" off the floor. Sounds killer.

If you want a stereo acoustic guitar sound, double 'em

[rkopald]

Originally Posted by chrisrockh

I've never gotten a good stereo sound from up close on an acoustic. My goto method is to put a mic just below the bridge, one on the 12th fret...

Ummm.....spaced pair, hence stereo?? Perhaps summed to mono?
A little confused over here, because my traditional understanding of "mono" mic'ing a gtr means one actual microphone, and not a bunch of them summed to mono.....
tomato, Tomah-toe I guess.....
If it collapses to mono it collapses to mono..
I guess????


I've had good results with both, in that I mean I've used one mic on a guitar, and I've also used two mics on a guitar that I've had panned as a stereo signal; I've also mono'd a gtr close up and mic'd the room response, etc..

There's so much that goes into recording a solo acoustic instrument, the room, the sound of the instrument, etc...

Carry on..

[Mr. Light]

Originally Posted by rkopald

Ummm.....spaced pair, hence stereo?? Perhaps summed to mono?
A little confused over here, because my traditional understanding of "mono" mic'ing a gtr means one actual microphone, and not a bunch of them summed to mono.....
tomato, Tomah-toe I guess.....
If it collapses to mono it collapses to mono..
I guess????

yah, summed to mono (I do believe I said that?)

[KRStudio]

+1 on mid-side. Great stereo, great mono

[midnightsun]

Mid Side summed to mono is simply Mid. The S cancels out.

XY summed to mono will be phase coherent (no comb filtering) as long as the two mics are coincident.

[Boschen]

Originally Posted by Shaft

Well, all the more impressive then, eh?!?

No doubt that, performance and recording skill trump uber-expensive gear.

Originally Posted by guitarmax_99

Very true! Very true!

A point which seems to run unnoticed through these forums like a hidden strand of gold wire...

@ guitarmax: that is a nice recording, even the mp3 sounds pretty good. Wistful tone. Well played.

[guitarmax_99]

Originally Posted by Boschen

A point which seems to run unnoticed through these forums like a hidden strand of gold wire...

@ guitarmax: that is a nice recording, even the mp3 sounds pretty good. Wistful tone. Well played.

Thanks for the kind words Boschen. I agree with you about the gold wire!

Originally Posted by t.d.dahlgren

guitarmax_99!

I listened to your clip! Fantastic sound and playing! Excellent balances in every aspect. Sweet sounding fingers! My interest for arguments and thoughts about microphones, preamps converters et al. just faded away. (On this occasion, mind you.)

Two things I perceived as SLIGHT problems was:

1. tremoloing finger mostly heard in string squeak/fretboard sound - but doesn't translate into tone? needs to use more force or scrap it? just a thought!

2. (tuning/)intonation issue clearly heard on last two seconds. something wrong with the guitar?

again, very nice playing, very good recording!!

Yeah, the low note on that guitar is just a tad sharp. The guitar is one I converted into a baritone guitar by putting very heavy strings on it. It's tuned very low, and that low, open string sounds ever so sharp on that last note if you listen really close. This is because it doesn't have enough length to really properly reproduce such a low note. It wouldn't be an issue if I had a real baritone guitar (with a longer neck scale). As for finger squeak, what can I say. Nobody's perfect

I was pretty happy with the overall performance though, as I thought it captured the spirit of what I was going for.

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by kojak

... Also, I'd like to reiterate the suggestion to not use brand spanking new strings...I like to play them for an hour or two to take that really high end bite out of them and let them settle on the guitar a little.

As always, must suit to taste. I agree that if a guitarist is using 80/20 strings that the break-in period will help settle the over-bright tone, but me, I always (usually always!) change strings before each session. I use phosphor bronze. I guess you could say that they are pre-settled for this instance.

[Traintrack]

"NEVER mike the sound hole..." tutt

Like this
Or this

I get some of the best sounds pointing right at the "sound" hole.

Many producers do the same. Like Don Was. I spoke with Elliot Mazer once and asked him how did it and he said a SCM on the sound hole, 10-15" back.

If you want the sound of the guitar in the mix, use the sound hole, A Gibson, Martin... Your guitar will have some balls and not that cartoon sound. I find that mic'n at the neck down removes some of the unique sound character of the guitar.

If I was only tracking one guitar I would throw up two, phase and split the pan a bit.