Apogee soft limit....Prism Over Killers etc???

[jazzius]

I often get material to master that has been recorded (off an analogue console) thru Apogee converters with the soft limit function engaged...

....sometimes the soft limit is really pushed hard.....my general feeling about this is that a little bit is ok, but when pushed hard, the track can start to sound broken..........on the other hand, maybe this "broken" effect is what they want.....

.....anyway, i think this sort of soft limit (also offered by Prismsound Over Killers ) is much more useful in mixing..........it seems to be a cool way to fatten up a sound by loping off a big transient......seems to work better than a normal limiter in some ways.......

......anyone using this sort of thing in the mix?......what other boxes will give you the same effect?.........what sort of pre-amp could give you enuff level to really jam the sound thru a Prism Overkiller? Any thoughts on Apogee soft limit?

[Brad Blackwood]

I've never liked the sound of Apogee's soft-limit - it seems to start working at about -4dbfs and changes the tonality too much. Not good in mastering, imo.

As for the Prism over-killers, they are just back-to-back zener pairs - nothing special. You can build these yourself for pennies. Not too great sounding either, imo.

[jazzius]

Yeah, but for mixing, different rules apply........i think adding distortion is actually one of the keys to a great mix.........

[jazzius]

Brad.......challenge accepted...how do i make one of these things?......is it possible for an electronically ******** person like myself?

[Bob Olhsson]

The Apogee AD-500 soft-limit sounded ok but most people I know haven't cared much for the later versions especially after the AD-1000 which was the last Apogee product that Bruce Jackson had anything to do with the design of.

[Jules]

possibly the biggest trouble wih these type of gizmos is that they can be marketed or misunderstood as tape saturation devices..

Mixdown time is probably NOT the time to make such important decisions like chopping off all the transients of a mix on it, was to the dat player - Masterlink etc....

leave that for mastering...

Only place for these IMHO is in a gonzo one chance live recording situation...

[jazzius]

Jules, i think you must be blessed with remarkable self control, because, if memory serves, i don't think i've ever got a mix from the PSX-100 or AD8000 were they didn't use the soft limit!
Anyway, you've got the Hedd so you have better "thickening" options..........

.........going slightly OT, i'm thinking of picking up something like the Fatso to use for distortion.......every week i'm getting someone coming in the studio with the Coldplay album as a reference.......i need something that can add distortion to all these overly-clean mixes........i've got the Hedd on the way so i'm hoping that'll turn the trick.

[blackcatdigi]

Originally posted by jazzius
i've got the Hedd on the way so i'm hoping that'll turn the trick.

Definately. Great piece of gear.

[jazzius]

I have a question for anyone with the Hedd.........is the effect volume dependent?........by this i mean, would the ammount of distortion (produced by the Hedd) reduce if you turned down the input level?.........or does it apply the same ammount of effect regardless of level (i'm hoping for the later)

[blackcatdigi]

There is no gain available, except for the Pentode/Triode/Tape gain controls...

And cranking them does indeed raise the levels.

[blackcatdigi]

(Just realized I didn't actually answer your question!)

The input level does not affect the signal processing. So changing the input level up or down will not affect the amount of distortion added...

[jazzius]

cool!

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally posted by jazzius
Brad.......challenge accepted...how do i make one of these things?......is it possible for an electronically ******** person like myself?

Easy:

[Rick Sutton]

I use an AD 1000 and find that for some mixes the soft limit is the perfect tool. I have also found that the soft limit threshold is user definable and that makes a huge difference in how it reacts to program material. I have seen units that have been set as deep as -6 and would mangle your mix to mush if you pushed hard against it. Through use and experimentation, I've set mine at -3dB relative to full scale and it works well when I choose to use it. I've owned the AD 500 and AD 1000 and know you can adjust them, but the newer ones I have no experience with . If the manual doesn't cover this adjustment call the mfg. They have always been helpful and very attentive to my needs over the years. Best regards, Rick

[jazzius]

Cheers, Brad. Gonna try that this week!

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by jazzius
i need something that can add distortion to all these overly-clean mixes........i've got the Hedd on the way so i'm hoping that'll turn the trick.

I think some analog processing will do you better.

The Hedd unit processing can easily be overdone.

Maybe its just me, but the Tape function just doesn't sound like a halfinch or 1 inch mixdown deck.

I think running the mix through an Ampex 440,ML preamp and a DW Fearn mic pre all give you different flavors of distortion that work well on a 2 mix.

[jazzius]

What's an ML preamp?

Interesting stuff..........that sounds a bit like the way i've heard people using the vari-mu.......not compressing.......just driving the level...............but i've never heard of a mic-pre in a mastering room..........but i feel sure that some of the top boys are using some of these tricks..........got any inside info?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by jazzius
What's an ML preamp?

Interesting stuff..........that sounds a bit like the way i've heard people using the vari-mu.......not compressing.......just driving the level...............but i've never heard of a mic-pre in a mastering room..........but i feel sure that some of the top boys are using some of these tricks..........got any inside info?

ML is Mark Levinson.

Some audiophile gear is specifically designed to make CD's more pleasant to listen to.

Some of the older ML designs do this very well.

Back in the early-mid 90's when digital boards were at their heights, people(including me) learned by running the outputs through certain line/pre's you could drive them and get nice gentle distortion.

I experimented with a whole bunch.

Some audiophile gear worked great. Also some of the pro stuff also. I liked running the output of an 02R through a DW Fearn mic pre. Also an english engineer told me that they were running the 02R through a pair of Tele V72's and getting great results as well.

[jazzius]

Right, let's get really slutty!

Has anyone ever tried

this on the 2-buss?

We've got a Cello Duet 350 power-amp over here and it's freakin' incredible, so i have big respect for ML

Yeah, i've thought about trying some audiophile tube pre-amp's to see if they could add something..........sigh...so many ideas, so little baguette!

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by jazzius
Right, let's get really slutty!

Has anyone ever tried

this on the 2-buss?

We've got a Cello Duet 350 power-amp over here and it's freakin' incredible, so i have big respect for ML

Yeah, i've thought about trying some audiophile tube pre-amp's to see if they could add something..........sigh...so many ideas, so little baguette!

Hey Jazzius,

I'll reserve my opinion on Cello amps!!

Lets say I am not the greatest fan.grudge

I think some of the class A designs should be investigated as well(John Curl and Nelson Pass for example).

Sometimes certain tube designs can sound cleaner than class A(like Manley/Vac Rac).

[jazzius]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Hey Jazzius,

I'll reserve my opinion on Cello amps!!

Lets say I am not the greatest fan.grudge

What models of audiophile preamp did you find useful for their euphonic character?

[Gie-Sound]

Originally posted by jazzius
Interesting stuff..........that sounds a bit like the way i've heard people using the vari-mu.......not compressing.......just driving the level...............but i've never heard of a mic-pre in a mastering room..........but i feel sure that some of the top boys are using some of these tricks..........got any inside info?

I've heard some people saying that puting the The Chandler Limited TG2 on the mixbus (after compression) is a cool trick.

[Fletcher]

The "soft limit" function in the 'Mini-Me' is the best version of the 'soft limit' thing Apologee has come up with since the AD-500...

IMNTLBFO... anything less than an STC-8 is a compromise to be avoided... but YMMV.

[Gie-Sound]

Originally posted by jazzius
.......every week i'm getting someone coming in the studio with the Coldplay album as a reference.......

Yep,
Does anyone know something more about the Coldplay distortion???
On headphones (more than on normal speakers) you can really hear it "sort of clip". Especially on the vocal... But did this happen in Mastering, or was it in the mixing stage??

[jazzius]

Originally posted by Gie-Sound
Yep,
Does anyone know something more about the Coldplay distortion???
On headphones (more than on normal speakers) you can really hear it "sort of clip". Especially on the vocal... But did this happen in Mastering, or was it in the mixing stage??

It certainly is very distorted, but thankfully it's not digital flat-topping (a la those idiots at Sterling Sound) that's causing it.......

........but i have no idea what is causing it........overloading the console?........Al Smart "crush"? ......... .....Fatso?..........Hedd?..........Tape?............anyone?...........who mixed it anyway?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by jazzius
It certainly is very distorted, but thankfully it's not digital flat-topping (a la those idiots at Sterling Sound) that's causing it.......

........but i have no idea what is causing it........overloading the console?........Al Smart "crush"? ......... .....Fatso?..........Hedd?..........Tape?............anyone?...........who mixed it anyway?

Didn't Michael Brauer mix Coldplay's album?


He posts here from time to time so I am sure you could ask him.

[Gie-Sound]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Didn't Michael Brauer mix Coldplay's album?
He posts here from time to time so I am sure you could ask him.

Yep, I looked it up. Michael H Brauer mixed Parachutes. And it's a great sounding albumthumbsup... I think it sounds better then the latest Coldplay album, but that's just a matter of taste?!

Mr. Brauer, if you read this,
could you tell us wat is causing the distortion, and where in the process was this added?

[dchen]

Michael doesn't have a chance to log in right now, but I told him about the thread and he emailed me this to post:

"Which song in particular are you referring to that has the vocal clipping?I'm sure that no distortion happened in the mastering. Sometimes(a lot of the time) though the mastering plant screws up the CD replication master. This might be a problem that didn't exist in the early CD production batch. They've sold about 5 million..one of those batches might be crap...I'm just guessing of course.

It was a long time ago since I mixed that record but it's possible that I had Chris going through a distressor with a 2% overdrive along with the british mod. Still, that would not give you a clipping sound. I don't recall how it was recorded. I also don't remember ever listening to the record and being distracted by anything unmusical like unwanted clipping. Dumb question but have you played your CD on another system to make sure it's not your gear? Michael Brauer"

[jazzius]

only speaking for myself........i'm referring to the new album which i don't believe Michael mixed...........

........also, i don't mean that the distortion is bad........in fact i'm trying to find a way to put it into my own masters (when appropriate!)

(nothing worse than overly clean music - check out the Weiss demo CD to see what i mean!)

[dchen]

Your right, Michael mixed Parachutes. A rush of blood to the head was mixed by Mark Pythian and Danton Supple according to Allmusic. I also like the sound of parachutes a little better, sounds really open and clear.