High class software comps kill the need for "colored" mics/preamps?

[klagga]

I´m looking for a mic and a preamp for home studio recordings.

I reckon that if I buy a nice clean mic (Neumann TLM 103) and a nice clean preamp (Apogee Mini-Me), I´ll do whatever tone coloring I need with a high class software compressor (for example UAD, Voxengo Marquis, etc).

So, no need for "colored" mics and/or preamps.

What do you think about this?

[Kenny Gioia]

High Class Software Compressors?

I don't know what to think of that.

[Reptil]

In theory it is a nice idea. I'm working like that on some projects (classical, jazz, choir), clean mic, preamp, straight to disk.. As far as your choice in mic and preamp, that is not my choice, but seems to me like a reasonable setup.

But... colour ITB and OTB is completely different. Like night and day. I think good outboard can help a computer setup greatly. It sort of opens up things. Just get some good machines. You don't need more than one compressor, one eq at first. Go for quality. That is my conclusion.

You have to draw your own conclusion first though. Try to compare stuff. before you commit yourself to buy anything. software might seem cheap at first, but consider updates, dsp, more and better converters...

Oh and before you look for colour, or processing at all: check your monitor setup.

[Jason Poulin]

Wishful thinking my friend

I don't think I can get into that zone with plugs.

API
Neve

and all those big names are out there for a reason!


IF you're a project studio, than that's fine but if you want to be competive in the commercial market, then you should go after the commercial sound and use the real toys.


Good luck!

Jason

[contramark]

I agree with this post. I think if your running a somewhat budget project studio these days it makes sense to get a nice clean pre and accurate mic then add all the tone you want later with pleanty of options out there like:

>>Using a UAD 1176 plugin with the input low and output high can give you some of the UA tone like an M610
>>LA2A, Fairchild, Anatres Tube can add tube character like some older tube pres
>>URS Plugins can do some of the API thing
>>Izotope Trash can add some intersting charcter as well as vintage warmer

I dont think there are yet any good neve emulatioins because they have an open type sound. You cant record on a API preamp and then process it to open it up a little and sound clean, but i do think you can do it the other way around.

[genericperson]

what are you planning to record? that affects everything.

if you want an all-purpose kind of situation, a TLM-103 and a paif of matched Josephson's will go a long way and give you professional sound without breaking the bank.

[cdog]

In my experience, learning how to use the tools properly, and optimizing their performance through careful listening, is vastly more important than which set of tools you use.

The question you asked is a rhetorical one, which assumes that you need "color" to have good sounding tracks, whatever the hell that means.

Get your amp sounding right. Get the guitar intonated and tuned properly.

Fix that ground loop!

Set up a mic. Hit record.

Stop thinking about boxes and start thinking about music.

[cdog]

Originally Posted by Jason Poulin

IF you're a project studio, than that's fine but if you want to be competive in the commercial market, then you should go after the commercial sound and use the real toys.


Good luck!

Jason

As if.....

[dolo]

Originally Posted by klagga

I´m looking for a mic and a preamp for home studio recordings.

I reckon that if I buy a nice clean mic (Neumann TLM 103) and a nice clean preamp (Apogee Mini-Me), I´ll do whatever tone coloring I need with a high class software compressor (for example UAD, Voxengo Marquis, etc).

So, no need for "colored" mics and/or preamps.

What do you think about this?

after years and years of working in the high end studios in new york i decided to build my own studio based around a pc. well, after spending somewhere around $25k on a new computer, nuendo, tons of plugs, apogee convertor, a good mic and one good pre, i now find myself by tons of outboard gear more mics and more pres.

to each his own i guess. but that just didn't work from me. i could not get the box alone to sound as good as the outboard stuff. i find that the balnace of digitail and analog is a great combo imo.

[contramark]

Originally Posted by cdog

The question you asked is a rhetorical one, which assumes that you need "color" to have good sounding tracks, whatever the hell that means.

Get your amp sounding right. Get the guitar intonated and tuned properly.

Fix that ground loop!

Set up a mic. Hit record.

Stop thinking about boxes and start thinking about music.

I dont agree with this response much at all. If all my mixes were coming out way too muddy and crap sounding because i was stuck using an ART Tube Pre or something like that,, I would probably quickly stop playing music and be less motivated.

I dont even think some of these people read the posts half the time but just respond with some random comment they come up with.

Do what you originaly proposed and get a clean pre then dial in what u want later. One thing I have learned though is that no matter how long you spend trying to make something emulate your favorite signal chain signal with plugins and eq it will never sound as natural and beautiful as the real thing. Theres just something about the simplicity and magic of plugging in say a u47 into a neve 1073...etc

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by klagga

So, no need for "colored" mics and/or preamps.

Blasphemy!

In all seriousness, the technology just isn't there and I don't know if it ever will be.

[Reggie Love]

I think what you are suggesting depends upon what you are trying to achieve.

If you really want a certain sound, the best and most reliable way to achieve it is by using the tools that do the job. I recently stripped down from alot outboard to just one set of pres and some decent mikes and started doing everything ITB. I felt this was a good idea especially as what I do requires alot of sound FX etc., so I have a limited need for classic sounds.

I must say the experience has been useful, but as I mentioned in another post, I'm already auditioning another set of pres, (and looking for a decent stereo compressor). Even in my stripped down state I have kept my PCM91.

If you look for an absolutist solution you will probably end up with an absolutist sound... and there is nothing wrong with that. Look at Kraftwerk, look at the various schools of Danish cinema, they have ended up producing interesting and unique products. As far as I'm aware, the pres I have chosen to audition are not typically used as DAW front end because I'd like something a little different.

On the other hand, a friend and client of mine is having a 24 track Studer winched into his basement this weekend, because he is determined to go for an entirely analogue studio. We're planing to audition some 1970s FX together soon.

It's what you want at the end of the day.

Cheers!

[klagga]

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it!

[jdunn]

Without reading all the responses thus far, I would say this.

First of all, some of the so-called "colored" preamps are not really that colored, just good sounding. It's all a matter of perspective. To me a really clean preamp is an Audio Upgrades or DACS or Gordon, etc... We're not even used to hearing that much clarity, but I like it for a lot of things.

I have used the Chandler Ltd. TG2 and Channel preamps on jazz projects with great results. I thought they were the best soudning pres on the session, and they were the ones that the producer commented on.

So anyway, that's my rant about "clean" and "colored" preamps for now. I want some Gordons, but I'm not selling my Chandler TG2, or my DACS.

As for software plugin compressors, I find they're best when used subtly, though sometimes a radical effect can sound good. If you're familiar with your plugin and know you'll be able to tweak a sound the way you want it, no problem. But if you want to be sure, just track it the way you want it to sound in the first place, and use the plugins to clean it up and add polish.

[spectacular g]

wow I don't know about this one...

lately I've been trying to do the exact opposite!!!

next time,
jfg

[jdunn]

Well, there's the philosophy of trying to capture the sound as cleanly as possible so you have an open canvas to play with it later.

But a lot of experienced engineers prefer to get the sound the way they want it during tracking. At that point any plugin usage will be just for subtle things like sitting it in the mix a little better, etc...

[spherop]

To me one of the most essential things, whether using tape or itb, is to try to get the best possible sound when recording; no matter what this applies. By best i mean tonally as close as one can get to what one envisions for the final sound of that element. Whether using itb compressors or hardware it's often very difficult to turn one sound into another. Applying tone... after the fact is less solid than having it in the first place. That's not to say you need dozens of pres, and comps. Get a couple that have different tones that cover the key elements you envision recording.

[achtung baby]

i think you should try out a number of mics and preamps and work with some plug ins. you might change your mind about using software compressors. i'd recommend some gear for you to try out but i don't know what kind of music you're interested in.

[dagg]

while DAW+outboard still is best combination, there are hi quality all-digital combinations available.

For example, Syntefex hardware (controlled thru proprietary plugins) recreates all possible outboard equipment with highest accuracy, it even emulates input and output circuits. Its plugs use hundereds of times more raw processing power than best plugs on market, and sound is really very good. I would say this thing does task much better than Liquid Channel.

Only problem is its price per channel. So, while I am fan of outboard quality, very soon (when processing hardware developments lowers overall costs) there will be no need for it.

I think in about 5 years time we will have SSL 9000 in a box, with all analogue quality. It is real possibility, because all those analogue circuits, valves, etc behavior can be digitally recreated, even random ones. It is only question of raw processing power.

[allbaldo]

I think the idea of getting as pure and flexible sound on the way in, and changing it to taste in mixing can be a good way to work. I know many on here won't agree with that, but I still look at the tracking phase of a recording in a "documentarian" way. I don't want to impart too much personality on someone's tracks that may be remixed at some point in the future. Mixing trends change often...good sounds are longer lasting.

INMSHO

[Reptil]

LOL you will see that a clean mic, preamp, converters and monitors will INCREASE your need for outboard hardware goodies, not decrease them.. and you will feel good about it. It is a different feeling than buying another harddrive.

[Bishbashbosh]

Originally Posted by Reptil

It is a different feeling than buying another harddrive.

Wierd isn't it? I just can't get excited buying a new harddrive, but get totally over-excited thinking about the next compressor!
In response to the original poster: If you're only going to have one mic and one pre, then I guess it kinda makes sense to have them as neutral as possible. (Personally wouldn't have the TLM 103 as my only mic, but that's another thread)
BUT don't expect to achieve the results that others do with the real deal, by using plugs. Remember, all these things (differences between a plug-in 1176 and a real 1176 for instance) can seem like very small differences. Especially in the hands of less experienced engineers. BUT over the course of a mix, lots of SMALL differences added together can make an ENORMOUS difference!
I'd go for quality over neutrality any day..... Vibe over precision.... but that's just me. If you're trying to fake mojo don't bother. Oh.... and don't get the TLM103. JMNSHO

[Switchcraft]

I used to think you could do it all in the box too. Get is suppa clean on the way in and then process. oooppps, I was wrong.

[2leod]

And then there's the whole question of whether you want to apply compression before you hit the converters. Tough to do with software...

[dagg]

and finally there's question of reason for all said here. I really love to hear warm, analog (slightly coloured) sound, no matter music style.

But as majority of record buyers are 12-18 y.o. 'MP3' generation, I think work can be done in a box, without risking lower sellability of project. Add good preamp and mic and that's it.

Which doesn't mean I like it that way. But joy is one thing and reality is another.

[contramark]

Originally Posted by Bishbashbosh

Wierd isn't it? I just can't get excited buying a new harddrive, but get totally over-excited thinking about the next compressor!

Wanted to point out that getting an 1176, Fairchild, LA2A, API or Neve EQ doesn't require getting a new hard drive, but rather 150 bux a pop to UAD or URS. Thats 150 bux for thousands of dollars worth of gear. To me at least, being a student on a tight budget, that is kind of exciting. Before UAD or URS I would have never been able to have the chance to expiriment with classic vintage gear and get tones comparable to the records I listen to. And although I dont think it is the exact same as the actually gear, It sure is getting closer; and at the least it provides a means of learning the gear for one day where it may actually be accessible.

[u b k]

OTHER WAY AROUND.

use super sweet analog front end, then transparent do-no-harm plugs to preserve the beauty as much as possible.

why go josephson->millenia->converter, then try to create the vibe from nothing with UAD?

why not go u67->tg2->studer->converter, and preserve the oozing dripping vibe with oxford?

don't get me wrong, you can do wonderful things with plugs. but creating MOJO is not one of them, at least not ime.


gregoire
del ubik

[jdunn]

I agree with u b i k. It's best to use the software compressors in an unobrusive way for gentle polishing. Then again, if you can get twisted sounds out of them and it sounds good, more power to you! I'm just saying that I prefer to choose my mics and preamps carefully for each instrument, and then I'm 90% there already.

I do think the Josephson into a Millennia would sound pretty sweet though.

[off topic] Man, they just showed a hilarious Harvey Birdman episode called 'Guitar Control'. I'll have to start watching that show.

[bing81]

Originally Posted by contramark

Thats 150 bux for thousands of dollars worth of gear.

No, it's 150 bux for 150 bux worth of gear. Don't kid yourself. Plugins are great, we all use them all the time. But they're nowhere near outboard, especially comps.

[Arka]

I agree with previous poster... analog compression is probably the effect that is hardest to emulate in-the-box. The FMR RNLA opto-style limiting amplifier seems like it might be a reasonably priced alternative if you are on plug-in budget. Don´t expect it to work on everything though...