late 60's, 70's soul and jazz drummers

[kallisto]

Anybody have any info on what snares were popular with cats like Mike Clark, Zigy Modeliste, Ed Greene, Clyde Stubblefield,,etc..etc....
I know Ludwig was big with Rock but cant find enough info on what the soul guys were using. I was told the Supraphonic metal snares could have contributed to the Love Unlimited sound that Ed Greene was getting...of course along with lots of skill and Tech's... But still I want to know if it was wood or metal that gave "that sound" or a combination of both and what brand's they were messin with...also what size snare's ( depth and width ) ..I know it probably was'nt just one but I think that there has to have been a sort of standard due to the fact alot of them sounded so similar....I dont think anybody can **** with Ed Greene's snare and hihat combo....that shit just cuts through the mix with ease with a shit load of texture...Mixing played an important factor but as we all know It always starts with the source.
any info would be appreciated
KALLISTO

[Alexi]

GRETSCH !!!

[Bishbashbosh]

Actually I'm not sure that Gretsch is necessarily correct, with regards to snare sound. Gretsch are on record as saying that until very recently, kit sales outstripped snare sales by over 10 to 1..... (pretty much because the snares sucked in comparison to the Ludwig's available at the time. )
Clyde Stubblefield was a Slingerland endorsee during a much of his time with JB, Jabo Starks was with Ludwig.
Ziggy Modeliste WAS a gretsch player, and used a chrome on brass 14"x5" drum. These are pretty cheap and easy to come by...... because they suck!!! (well maybe that's a little unfair... they're pretty well built, but the brass shell is REALLY thick, and creates a strong fundamental tone, which is not what most people expect to hear from a snare drum)
If I'm ever asked to get "that sound" from the '60s or '70s my first choice is always a Ludwig 400, and I also have a Slingerland Radio King for that purpose too. The Ludwig was just SO prevalent back then. It was the drum used on so many records, and beacuse of this it became what people EXPECTED to hear.
Between them, the vast majority of records from the mid 60's to the mid 70's featured Hal Blaine, Gary Chester, Earl Palmer, Bernard Purdie, Benny Benjamin, and Al Jackson Jr..... all of them Ludwig 400 players.
The Gretsch snares were never popular (even amongst their own endorsees) and I would definitely not say they are representative of the sound of that era.

[toolskid]

Ludwig 400, also the old classic beverley and rogers metal snares

[Bishbashbosh]

thumbsup Rogers Dynasonic

[toolskid]

Originally Posted by Bishbashbosh

thumbsup Rogers Dynasonic

bingo!!! thanks BBB

[Sharp11]

I had a Ludwig Supraphonic 400 back then. I recorded a number of jingles and television music with it right up through the early 80's.

It was fine, but the snare I have currently, a brass Gretsch with a chrome coating, is better made, certainly heavier and nails many different sounds from open jazz-type tunings to dead funk.

I believe any current high quality snare should give you a variety of sounds - it's all up the the player and engineer to dial it in.

Ed

[kallisto]

Great info guys....keep it comming......what size were the snares......is it also true that there hihats were offset by size.....small 13" on the bottom and 14" on the top?
KALLISTO

[chetatkinsdiet]

The Ludwig Supra snares are probably the most popular during that time period and are the most heard on recordings. Gretsch snares were just about never used. Rogers Powertone and Dynasonic snares were very popular as well. Slingerland Radio Kings have always been up there as well. But if you're specifically talking soul and jazz, I'd say the Luddy or Rogers I mentioned above will be the #1 choice.

Later,
m

[chetatkinsdiet]

Standard 5" depth and 14" are what was played. Some older jazz guys might have been using an older Radio King that's 6" deep, but probably more 5" snares than not.

As far as the hats go.....a pair of Paiste 602 or Zildjian K is probably what you're hearing. I guess they could have tested a few different sizes, but I don't think it's something that was all that widespread where you could generalize that "that's the sound"....

later,
m

[kallisto]

good lookin out man...
Great info from all of you.....just wish those vintage drums were heard more often.....also seems like the skill level went down the tubes as well...I guess thats what happens when you have digital editing to correct mistakes!!!!

KALLISTO

[chetatkinsdiet]

what makes you think that you're not hearing vintage drums on records. I don't care what the guys are pictured with in their modern drummer ads.....odd are, they were recording with vintage kits. At the least, a vintage snare.

later,
m

[kallisto]

Sorry man....I should have been more specific....I know that Drummers are still using vintage drums on records...That would be stupid to think there not...I meant the style of play and the way they were mixed into the record....The snare sound was completly diff. back then....Im not speaking about rock b/c to tell you the truth I dont listen to shit after the 70's....I think the skill level and style went to shit and dont care for it...I'm a soul junkie who produces Hiphop and thats were my statement stemed from. The very few R&B cats out there that try to recreate that sound just dont do it right......Amir is nice though...that mo-f^&ker can play...he has that lose effortless play that just swings. Do me a favor and put together a list of records within the 90's and 20th century that have have the same feel as those records did....its not gonna happen...shit is way to clean...and thats ok...its what is in and makes money...after all it is 30 years later and genre's change......but when I said I wish those vintage drums could be heard more often , it wasnt meant to say that Green Days drummer wasnt using a "vintage Ludwig " on there latest single....it meant that Im sonicaly stuck in the 70's b/c of the overall vibe that the musicians played with. I like shit to sound dirty...Thats why I prefer Love Unlimited over Destinys Child...Leon Ware over R. Kelly...and late 80's - 90's hiphop over southern shit from the 20th century.....There is only a handfull of producers and artists that stay true to that sound and just wish it was around a little more..thats all....
--and by the way I dont look through mag's and look at pictures to base my opinions...I use my ears..... nice cheap stab though.....

[Jim vanBergen]

Bernard "Pretty" Purdy always used a Ludwig 400, on everything from Aretha Franklin to the HAIR soundtrack. His tuning and depth has been my favorite snare sound, both recorded and live, PERIOD. Lots of the early classic albums had a kick mic and an OH about 30" above the snare and THAT WAS IT before suddenly every drum as miked along with OHs and room mics.

[toolskid]

don't forget the billfold on the snare....

[chetatkinsdiet]

Hey Killisto,

I agree 100%. My faves are much the same. I also dig all the loose, ragged rock stuff from the era too....early 70s Stones, Faces, etc. The recordings at that time were still in most cases a group of talented musicians standing in a room playing together at one time. The sound of tape, mic bleed and the gear of the time all come into play in creating "that" sound.
How bout the amount of distortion on Al Greens drums on most of his hits. That would NEVER happen today. I can't tell if they're overloading the mics, pres, compressors or all of the above, but it sounds cool to me.

later,
m