Gretsch drums - A step up or sideways?

[69 Sound]

I know the subject of studio drums has come up recently so hopefully some of the drummers on the forum can chime in.

I currently have a 5 piece Tama Royal Star kit that's primarily used for drummers that come in with less then stellar sounding kits.

The kit itself sounds good and tracks fairly well without any major issues.

But as a true gearslut....

The new Gretsch Cataline Birch sets have caught my attention and I'm wondering if this would be a step up, or a step sideways as far as sound and flexibility.

The Tama is a 6 ply mahogany shell + 2 ply basswood, whereas the Gretsch is solid birch.

What to do... What to do...

[Matt Grondin]

Spend a little extra money on a vintage Gretsch kit from the 60's or 70's. Then make sure the bearing edges are flat and if not, get them cut by someone like Pork Pie Drums... should make all the difference in the world. Slingerland, Ludwig, and Rogers are also good.

[chetatkinsdiet]

If you're going to upgrade, then really upgrade. You can pick up a cool old vintage kit for nearly nothing these days. For well under a grand, you can find a great old vintage kit. Be it Gretsch, Ludwig, Rogers or Slingerland, they're all good. Same with any older item, some will be in good shape and some will be ragged. Just know what you're looking at when you're shopping. But, as is already mentioned, bearing edges can be recut, wrap/color isn't important, most hardware can be replaced/fixed, so there's really not much to worry about.

Don't get too hung up on the woods, as just about all the vintage kits out there were some mixture of mahogany and poplar or a few maple plys. Only a few in certain years were maple and primarily that was Rogers.

later,
m

[69 Sound]

I had considered some of the vintage options and perhaps it's a regional thing, but the vintage Gretsch, Ludwig, Rogers kits that I've seen in the past 6 months or so have been going for $1200+

To be honest, once I start looking at that price point I'd probably be more inclined looking at the Gretsch Renown maple or a used dw kit. Picking up a vintage kit in that price range that needs work done doesn't make much sense to me.

Like I said though, perhaps it's a regional thing being in Southern California.

As far as my current Tama Royal Star set (which is from the late 70's early 80's) Would the Gretsch Catalina just be a step sideways? From your posts that sounds like it'd be the case.

Thanks,

Chris

btw - my cymbals are all Zildjian A's and I just upgraded all the hardware so I'd only be looking at shell packs

[C/G]

Same connundrum here. I was going to throw down for a nice old det of Ludwigs or my 1st preference, Rogers. If I was going to pay $1000 US for a vintage set, I might as well throw in a few more dollars and get new. For roughly $1500 Canadian I picked up 3 new Ludwig maple classics with a wrap finish for less than it cost me to buy a floortom for my custom Ayotte kit. I do not want to gig with a $6000 kit hence the need for a cheaper kit. The Ludwigs almost sound identicle to my Ayottes, both kits being maple. This way I get a warranty and no issues or surprises with buying a vintage kit. Nice ones are out there but you will pay for them.

[Earwitness]

I have that set in my studio
www.earwitnessstudios.com
if you want to hear some songs tracked with it you can go to...
http://www.myspace.com/davidavenue
these songs were Catalina Birtch Gretch...
if that helps at all, I like em thumbsup

[True North]

The classic Gretsch shell is maple and that is what I would be shooting for. I am not crazy about Gretsch snares.

I bought my Gretsch kit in the 80's and they are a great sounding kit. I prefer a slightly more modern kit to the vintage ones simply because the hardware tends to be better on the newer versions. My gretsch was fitted with Tama hardware which is better than Gretsch hardware IMO.

You should be able to find a used set of Gretsch maple drums on Ebay for a decent price and they will definitely be a step up from the Tama's that you currently own.

By buying a Birch shell off of Gretsch is like going to a top steakhouse and ordering fish! Good Luck!

[Matt Grondin]

New drums just aren't that great, and they all sound the same. DW is overrated and overpriced... granted, they do sound good, but not worth the money IMO. Go to www.vintagedrum.com and at least take a look at what they got... You can probably get an old Slingerland kit for under a grand, and they sound great. Something about that old wood just sounds better. It's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned. Good luck.

[69 Sound]

Originally Posted by True North

By buying a Birch shell off of Gretsch is like going to a top steakhouse and ordering fish! Good Luck!

I would tend to agree, but rumor has it that the Catalina Birch shells are actually being made by Keller which really piqued my interest.

dobby: Thanks for the link I'm going to check that now...

Earwitness: Checked out the songs on myspaceand they sound good, but there's alot of other percussion in those songs which makes it a bit hard to focus in on the kit. I'm in the Fullerton area so maybe I can check out the kit in your studio.

Please PM or email me if this might be possible.

[Earwitness]

uuu... I'm not very hip to PM'ing
email address,
I have recorded a number of fullerton artists...
Mike Barnet
Tyrone Wells
Danny Vasquez
at least they have lived at some point in Fullerton
most of them have shows at Plush you ever visit there?
word
sam

[chetatkinsdiet]

Dude...You're in Fullerton? That's where all the Rogers post 72 kits were made. They're not typically all that collectable as collectors want the Ohio made stuff, but they sound killer. I usually have tons of vintage drums that I can sell, but am sort of low right now. I might have something that would be a killer studio set, but I'm not all that sure I want to sell it. It's a Tama Superstar kit from the early 80s. I've got a bunch of different toms, two floor toms and two kicks. They're 100% birch and sound amazing in the studio. Give me a day or so and I'll see what I think about selling them. They'd definitely be in your price range for a basic studio kit, or maybe just a tad over for the whole package which would give you the ability to mix and choose different drums for different applications.

They're not too vintage sounding, meaning they've got a bit more sustain, but they don't ring forever like all the annoying new kits that sound terrible in the studio as they junk up the mix.

later,
m

[Bishbashbosh]

Originally Posted by 69 Sound

rumor has it that the Catalina Birch shells are actually being made by Keller which really piqued my interest.

Exactly the problem IMHO..... The classic Gretsch sound was a lot to do with the Jasper's shells, in use till the mid-90's.

I have three Gretsch kit's... a 1970's, one from 1982, and one from 1991. I've also toured with a new Gretsch, and done a few sessions with a Renown.

Let's just say that I think Gretsch need to have a look at making sure their new shells are round. (or maybe I've just been very unlucky.....)

Personally I'd say that the Catalina is definitely a step sideways...

I'd also add, that if I were unsure about picking out drums, and wanted to buy a kit for a studio, then Yamaha are the safest bet. Best hardware, and very consistent shells. The U87 of the drum world- least likely to sound like crap!

[jayfrigo]

The Jasper Maple kits are real Gretsch. They are also real money. Catalina kits are just so/so entry level. At least get a Renown and you'll be a step above what you have now, but as decent as the Catalina are for the money, they're just beginner drums. GMS used to make a nice kit. I haven't seen any recent ones, so I don't know about current quality. Noble & Cooley had some real dogs in the 90s, but got their crap together for a while in the early 2000s and had some really excellent sounding kits. However, it's a bit of a crap shoot as to whether you'll get a good one or not, so you better check it out before buying. Pork Pie definitely makes a nice kit. DW is overpriced, and is predictable and good, but not excellent. Everybody knows what to expect with them, and you can get a good sound, so they aren't a bad studio kit for that reason. The better Yamaha drums also fall into the same category of predictable good drums, but that don't really blow you away. Some of the new Tamas are good for intermediate drums. I haven't heard a Pearl or Ludwig that has impressed me in a while though. Sonor is also old news. I haven't liked those in a long time. Ayotte I was disappointed with. Bearing edge is pretty good, but not amazing. Mapex is pretty good for the money. They aren't a Jasper Maple Gretsch, but they're comparble to the renown level. That's what comes to mind as far as drums go. I'm sure I've forgotten to include a bunch, maybe even some that I would like, but hey, I'm just an engineer who can beat on the skins, not a real drummer!

[True North]

My go to studio kit is a Yamaha Recording Custom. They are considered fairly old school but I think they are still one of the best studio kits available. I also have Gretsch kit which I love but it is finicky (like many other resonant shells) to get a good sound out of.

You may want to consider ease of use and who will be using the kit. The majority of serious players are going to want to bring in their own kit. If I were to guess, the majority of guys coming in wanting to use a stock kit will probably be those guys who (A) aren't very good and (B) have crummy kits at home.

Say what you will about Yamaha Recording Custom there is no kit on the planet that easier and faster to get some decent sounds out of. Considering that some of your clientel that may be using the kit might not be the second coming of Dave Weckl - you may want to consider how easy it will to get great sounds , quickly - Cheers!

[69 Sound]

Well, Everyone has given me a ton of information to think about...

I think I'm suffering from a bit of censory overload after Jay's last post (feelin... kinda... dizzy) lol

Seriously though, It sounds like a trip down to west coast drum to check out some different options is probably in order.

I really appreciate everyone's input. Now I'm gonna crawl back into the safety of my damp dank little control room where I can feel safe... And try to digest all this information.

[loosejaw]

Gretsch stuf in the 80's made of jasper wood is the best, me and my partner have recorded all the best drums, and there is NO COMPARISON, nothing touches Gretsch for recording, nothing stays better in tune, nothing has better tone and full clear warm note value, add in a 1ply Slingerland radio king (the best sounding snare drum ever) and thats all u will ever need. Trust me, its the truth save time and buy Gretsch, there is a reason the vintage stuff is so sought after.

L.J.

[macr0w]

If you like the Tama's take a look at the Star Classics. I've been playing the drums for 20 years but I'm not a collector of vintage drums. I believe you can work on any set for the most part and get a decent sound. Of course some kits sound much better than others. I've been playing the same DW kit for almost 10 years now and I still love it. I would dare to say that all the major manufacturers today DW, Tama, Pork Pie, Ludwig, Pearl, Yamaha, Premier and even Sonar make decent kits. Take a look at Pacific drums too. They are good for "cheap" drums. I do like DW hardware better than most though.
Good Luck.

[69 Sound]

Originally Posted by loosejaw

Gretsch stuff in the 80's made of jasper wood is the best, me and my partner have recorded all the best drums, and there is NO COMPARISON, nothing touches Gretsch for recording, nothing stays better in tune, nothing has better tone and full clear warm note value, add in a 1ply Slingerland radio king (the best sounding snare drum ever) and thats all u will ever need. Trust me, its the truth save time and buy Gretsch, there is a reason the vintage stuff is so sought after.

L.J.

Yeah, I'm pretty much sold on the idea Gretsch.

Still considering some other options, but IMO one of the best recorded drum tones I've ever heard was my old drummers Gretsch kit and I've not ever forgotten that. I actually pulled out an old dat last night and listened to a recording we did. It still amazes me just how good it sounded.

[69 Sound]

Originally Posted by macr0w

If you like the Tama's take a look at the Star Classics. I've been playing the drums for 20 years but I'm not a collector of vintage drums. I believe you can work on any set for the most part and get a decent sound. Of course some kits sound much better than others. I've been playing the same DW kit for almost 10 years now and I still love it. I would dare to say that all the major manufacturers today DW, Tama, Pork Pie, Ludwig, Pearl, Yamaha, Premier and even Sonar make decent kits. Take a look at Pacific drums too. They are good for "cheap" drums. I do like DW hardware better than most though.
Good Luck.

I do like some of Tama kit's, but the drummer from the last project I was involved in had a Star Classic kit which I thought sounded great live, but IMO didn't track well (atleast for the project we were working on) Then again it also could have been his kit in that particular room.

Have you had good luck tracking with your Star Classic?

[macr0w]

I don't own "Star Classics". But I would look at them if I was in the market for a new kit. I've been playing the same DW kit for almost 10 years. I have been impressed with the sound of the "Star Classics" but haven't had the chance to track any yet.

[69 Sound]

Sorry... reading too fast for my own good.

Somehow I got that you had a set of Star Classics and a set of DW's

[chetatkinsdiet]

I do collect drums. Got a room full, or multiple rooms that is....
I've got or had them all. I've never been much of a fan of modern drums. As I've mentioned before, they sound great when played solo or at home, but in a recording setting, they seem to just take over the song. They all ring out too much. I think in a recording setting, ideally, you want the drums to do their thing, have a nice, round tone and then get out of the way. You don't want the hits ringing into the next measure. That's what happens with newer kits.
I do know as I have a kit of Tama SCM's that I purchased last year. I do dig them, but I probably won't ever record with them as they ALWAYS get beat by one of my vintage kits.
As for the Jasper/Gretsch thing. Vintage Rogers were Jasper shells as well. It's not so much the shells as the reverse bearing edges that Gretsch used. I've had that same edge cut on other drums and get similar tones. The trouble is finding another thin, vintage shell without reinforcement rings. That again, is the key to Gretsch's sound. The Tama SCM's are very close to the old Gretsch shell, but with a more modern edge cut. I'm sure you could have a vintage-type edge cut on them, but it's sort of hard to put the router to $4K worth of drums...you know?
You can find some drums for not that much money, but you're going to have to look for something like the Fullerton Rogers or stopsign Gretsch drums. Heck, my favorite studio kit is a set of 6ply Luddy's from the late 70s. That and a Supra snare and you're gold.

later,
m

[69 Sound]

Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet

Heck, my favorite studio kit is a set of 6ply Luddy's from the late 70s. That and a Supra snare and you're gold.

later,
m

You know... You just reminded me of a kit I saw a couple years back at a tiny little pawn shop out in the middle of nowhere. It was a ludwig sparkle wrap. Not sure of the year, but it just may still be sitting there. I was on my way out of town at the time but I think I may still have a card for the shop. Hadn't given it too much thought till now.

[blackcatdigi]

Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet

I've never been much of a fan of modern drums.(snip) They all ring out too much. I think in a recording setting, ideally, you want the drums to do their thing, have a nice, round tone and then get out of the way. You don't want the hits ringing into the next measure.

Funny how things work, huh? Remember when RIMS were introduced because all the tom mounts were killing the sustain? The debates over how wrap finishes kill the resonance of the drums?

I agree. Make a sound, decay, done. I don't care for the two minute sustained drum sounds. I'm not even opposed to duct tape and paper towels or deadringers, except they tend to lop off a bit of the stick attack...

My main studio kits are 70's Slingerlands; thin maple w/reinforcing hoops, wrapped in chrome (yes, that's right, real chrome). Heavy and heavy. Except for sizes and number of drums, the exact kit I started with...

[chetatkinsdiet]

I had a set of slings with metal coverting too. I made the mistake of trying to recover them as they were rusting pretty bad. Mine were the copper finish. Man, never again. That stuff is put on with some extra heavy glue. I tried heat and everything else to get it off. It was nearly impossible. I think I ruined a few of the drums by pulling plys of wood off as well as the finish.

I do love the way Slings sound. Their bearing edges were probably more round than the others back in the day which makes them more, well, vintage sounding. Love the sticksaver hoops too as I'm one of those guys that hits rimshots on just about every drum...every hit.

Later,
m

[69 Sound]

There's been a number of references to the bearing edges on drums and not being a drummer I've never given this too much thought. I know it does have an effect on the tone, but can anyone tell me how drastically recutting the bearing edges on a set of shells is going to vary the sound? I assume it's not going to make a crap drum sound good or a good drum sound crap (unless done incorrectly) But would recutting the bearing edges on a mid line kit make it sound any better?

Chris

[Sharp11]

Originally Posted by loosejaw

Gretsch stuf in the 80's made of jasper wood is the best, me and my partner have recorded all the best drums, and there is NO COMPARISON, nothing touches Gretsch for recording, nothing stays better in tune, nothing has better tone and full clear warm note value, add in a 1ply Slingerland radio king (the best sounding snare drum ever) and thats all u will ever need. Trust me, its the truth save time and buy Gretsch, there is a reason the vintage stuff is so sought after.

L.J.

I have a Gretsch set from the early 90's and I concur, they're amazing!! always in tune, always sounding great and are very, very well made.

I had, since 1971, a set of Ludwig "Hollywood" drums, they were made in October of 1967 and were basically the same kit Ringo used on Let It Be.

The Ludwig's had a nice sound, but I never felt they were particularly well made, the shells were weak, the bearing edges rough and the hardware was junk. Eventually, my 22 inch bass drum shell warped where the tom mount was.

I think Rogers drums from the same period were better, sturdier and had a more robust sound.

The Gretsch set I have is superior to any of the old sets I've ever seen though, don't know if they're jasper or not, but everything about 'em shouts quality.

Ed

[blackcatdigi]

Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet

I had a set of slings with metal coverting too. I made the mistake of trying to recover them as they were rusting pretty bad. Mine were the copper finish. Man, never again. That stuff is put on with some extra heavy glue. I tried heat and everything else to get it off. It was nearly impossible. I think I ruined a few of the drums by pulling plys of wood off as well as the finish.

I actually had a 'custom drum dude' do that to another chrome kit as well. He complained that it was a major PITA and took FOREVER, but wound up doing quite a good job. Lacquered them fire engine red. They still sounded better than they looked!

[C/G]

Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet

Dude...You're in Fullerton? That's where all the Rogers post 72 kits were made. They're not typically all that collectable as collectors want the Ohio made stuff, but they sound killer. I usually have tons of vintage drums that I can sell, but am sort of low right now. I might have something that would be a killer studio set, but I'm not all that sure I want to sell it. It's a Tama Superstar kit from the early 80s. I've got a bunch of different toms, two floor toms and two kicks. They're 100% birch and sound amazing in the studio. Give me a day or so and I'll see what I think about selling them. They'd definitely be in your price range for a basic studio kit, or maybe just a tad over for the whole package which would give you the ability to mix and choose different drums for different applications.

They're not too vintage sounding, meaning they've got a bit more sustain, but they don't ring forever like all the annoying new kits that sound terrible in the studio as they junk up the mix.

later,
m

Superstar kits are awesome. I used to have one but the shells were power toms so they were too deep for me now. If they were standard sizes I would still be rocking that kit. I especially loved the 24" kick it came with, now all my kits have 24" kicks on them. Old Rogers are awesome too. Go for the Superstars if Chetatkinsdiet will sell them. You will not be sorry. I actually tried to find a nice superstar kit when I was shopping for a second kit but there was nothing really available at the time on ebay or from vintage dealers. Yeah Superstars!

[chetatkinsdiet]

Yeah, the 24" kick on my superstars is unreal. Like I've said, it's not too vintage, but not too modern. Being birch, it's got that going for it as well, which always seems to work well recorded. Just ask the Yamaha RC guys as this is what they are too.
I happen to think the Superstars are a bit more aggressive sounding than the Yammy RC's. The drums are all like explosions of sound. Totally cool. Just to name a few Superstar users.....Dave Grohl on Nevermind, Lars on most of the pre-black album stuff, Peart on early to mid 80s Rush......lots more, but those come to mind now.

later,
m