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| So much gear, so little time! General recording equipment discussion + session & music biz politics. Moderated by Jules, London, UK & James 'LA' Lugo - the Vocal Asylum, Los Angeles, USA |
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7th November 2005, 12:35 PM
| #1 |
| Gear nut  Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Waterloo, Sydney, Australia
Posts: 114
| High Hat bleed... Hmmm.... A nasty thing... Many of my favorite recordings feature perfect seperation between the snare and highhat. The engineer was somehow able to keep the two sounds totally seperate of eachother, allowing the hats to be panned hard right/left and for the hats to be coming from that direction only. They will then compress the crap out fo the snare, but not get any of that associated hats spill that can make a snare sound like a burst of white noise... What are the tricks behind this seperation ? I've tried all sorts of snare mic positions, but it never seems to matter. Gates don't help me either. Is it the room ? Is it to do with the overheads ? Please, educate me ! |
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7th November 2005, 01:57 PM
| #2 |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: May 2005 Location: Waterbury CT, then Providence, RI
Posts: 1,756
| Well, one thing to try on micing the top of the snare with something like a sm57 is to have the sm57 pointing away from hihat, even if that means it is physically closer to the hihat. Also some sort of foam- cut out a hole and stick the sm57( or mic of your choice..) thru it.. This should offer some additional padding on the back end. Overheads are just as quilty. Postion the overheads to the point where when they are panned hard left right- the snare comes right down the middle..
__________________ Ummm, thats it... move a little to the left.. |
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7th November 2005, 02:54 PM
| #3 | |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,558
| Quote:
So I believe one of two things are going on. 1) there is not as much separation as you might think there is. I have squashed a snare track before and have still been able to pull the hat to one side or the other in the mix. I don't do this much anymore because it just sounds unnatural to me. Now most if not all of my drum mics stay inside 3 and 9 for the most part. If you are going for more separation (which is all good) I don't see why you can't pull the hat over? 2) My guess is the snare and maybe the hat tracks are replaced, no bleed and you can compress each to taste. Hope this helps.
__________________ "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H.L. Mencken 1880 - 1956 ____________________________________________ Michael | |
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7th November 2005, 03:06 PM
| #4 |
| Gear addict  Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 304
| Proximity can help too, of course- I fthe snare mic is very close to the snare head, you get correspondingly less bleed- Have to juggle the variables to get good tone that way though, don't get that nice balanced tone as when the mic is a little farther away- |
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7th November 2005, 04:49 PM
| #5 |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Netherlands
Posts: 752
| Get yourself a nice Beyer M201 and be happy with your snare sound and very little hat bleed. |
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7th November 2005, 05:12 PM
| #6 |
| Gear Head  Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: close to the coast
Posts: 50
| overdubbing the hi-hat after the basic track will get you "perfect" separation.....or...use samples/replacements |
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7th November 2005, 05:16 PM
| #7 |
| Gear addict Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 440
| While mixing, try a transient designer or the sony dynamics expander to dial out some hat (sometimes a deesser works too)....works pretty well, but you need a close room mic or some reverb to put some decay back in the snare sound....also drummers can control this better than you, so check during tracking that they're not bashing the hell out of the hihat. another pointer, don't compress during tracking too much if this is a problem as sometimes it's nice to lose some hihat with the above techniques before going into a comp to get the snare sound. -brian |
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7th November 2005, 06:01 PM
| #8 | |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,004
| Quote:
And I am with not_so_new here...I doubt you are hearing the seperation you think you are..It is just not possible...And those mini gobos or foam cup / auralex stuff has never ever worked for me...not a bit. Good mic placement (using the null as much as possible) and taking your pen and marking the snare track "hi-hat" and you are in business!! 
__________________  ........... Spiritual Healing Love, Clarity, Expression and Well-Being Rodney Gene aka Sound Preacher Magic is alive and well | |
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7th November 2005, 06:45 PM
| #9 |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,448
| It's easy: hire a great drummer who hits the snare like a man AND hits it consistently and controls the volume of the hi-hat. Result: not much disturbing hi hat leakage in the snare mic and you don't need to compress the loudest snare peaks with 15dB to get the snare even... Really, if the drummer is good, it's no problem, if the drummer sucks, not much will help. Yes you can gate or expand the snare mic, but then you lose all the natural decay of the snare. A solid drummer is the only real solution. Greetings, Dirk
__________________ -progress takes away what forever took to find- Dave Matthews |
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7th November 2005, 06:50 PM
| #10 |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Seattle
Posts: 633
| what a great topic to get everyone's .02 I'm with Dirk-- you need a drummer who can play WELL with finesse and usually, I say *usually* hi hat bleed won't be a problem. Get a basher or someone who can't play very well or one who leaves those hats open and hits them hard, and then it's a PITA and utilizing null points effectively is the first line of defense. **DOES ANYONE HAVE A PHOTO OF THE SNARE-MIC SHIELD THINGY??** to keep out the hats.
__________________ hey tune into the doctor: http://lesterdiamondradio.com/ |
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7th November 2005, 06:55 PM
| #11 |
| Gear maniac Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: London
Posts: 216
| I often find that it is to do with the room. If you are in a small room with a window right in front of the kit you will have more problems. There will be a lot of splash from the hats anyway. In that case I find it hard to get out of the overheads as well. You could try micing cymbals a lot closer and go behind the china and underneath the ride with mics. Also use soundreplacer to add a sample to the snare. The you can bring down the level of the real snare track a bit. From the other side you can watch the drummer when playing carefully. Stop the performer if he hits the cymbals too quietly and try to get good volume from the cymbals. That way you can turn down the overheads a little. Also cut the gaps between each tom hit to stop the hats coming in from there as well. |
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7th November 2005, 08:05 PM
| #12 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,004
| Quote:
__________________ ........... Spiritual Healing Love, Clarity, Expression and Well-Being Rodney Gene aka Sound Preacher Magic is alive and well | |
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7th November 2005, 08:08 PM
| #13 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Seattle
Posts: 633
| Quote:
Hey thanks Rodney!!!
__________________ hey tune into the doctor: http://lesterdiamondradio.com/ | |
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7th November 2005, 08:17 PM
| #14 | |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tampa Bay - Orlando - Sarasota - Gainesville
Posts: 5,004
 | Quote:
Just my opinion, it's definitely not any big secret or challenge though... 1) Start with a player who can hit the snare like a Gorilla, but have finesse with the high hat. This is a rare in a non pro player. 2) Use a snare sample 3) put a seperate quality microphone on the high hat
__________________ Nathan Eldred www.AtlasProAudio.com Boutique Gear Consultation & Sales NEW!! Pro Audio Rentals  www.AtlasRecording.com Recording/Mixing/Mastering Services | |
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7th November 2005, 08:30 PM
| #15 | |
| Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,558
| Quote:
I'm with Rodney (back at ya..  ) I have never had any luck with the " SNARE-MIC SHIELD THINGY" myself.I know you are not going to want to hear this but you really have 4 choices. 1) 100% sound replace the hat and the snare 2) play the hat separately 3) really work with a gobo and place the mics in a way to cut the bleed 4) just don't worry about it. I have tried 2 and I have never liked the results, the groove suffers. 1 never feels real to me (not that I am against replacing things, I think "supplementing" is a better word for what I do). 3 is a pain in the ass and I always seem to compromise the best mic placement for each with very little gain. 4 is really the best way to go, put up some nice mics on a well tuned kit with a good player and make the drums sound like they do in the room. If you want to, pan the hat track 100< or > then sneak that into the mix. If that does not work and you want a completely separated kit then hook up a drum machine, that is where you are heading anyway with total separation. YMMV....
__________________ "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H.L. Mencken 1880 - 1956 ____________________________________________ Michael | |
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7th November 2005, 09:00 PM
| #16 |
| Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 114
| i found that if you break/sprain or strain (if getting him/her to back off a bit) the drummers right arm, the hihat bleed is no longer an issue, all you need do is re-gain stage the hat setup and go from there. g |
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7th November 2005, 09:06 PM
| #17 |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin, Texas USofA
Posts: 1,115
| Just finished working on a mix where the drummer had bashed away on an open hat and spilled all over the snare and OHs. We tried everything we had in our racks to tame the sibilant hat sound and ended up using a Neve 2254-style CompressorBank plug-in on the OHs to smooth things out (my real 2254 won't arrive for another week, dammit!). It was a little better but it would have been much better had the tracking engineer caught this up front. Some things just can't be properly fixed in the mix, and this was one of them!
__________________ "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - Hunter S. Thompson www.myspace.com/steventoddhudson |
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7th November 2005, 09:33 PM
| #18 | |
| Gear addict  Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: NY
Posts: 346
| Quote:
i use a dynamite set for gate and DOWNWARD EXPANDER. it works perfectly doing exactly that (to remove high hat from snare mic). good luck, rlnyc | |
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7th November 2005, 10:35 PM
| #19 |
| Lives for gear  Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 900
| Get a good drummer that can play the drums properly. It's the most common thing, for lesser quality drummers to hit the hat too hard and the snare too quiet. If it's going to be an effected / squashed snare, listen back with compression cranked whilst tracking to see how much bleed is getting in. Get the drummer to physicaly move the hat firther away from the snare, even an inch or two may help. Pointing the rear of the snare mic at the hats is good for rejection, but difficult in practice. Put cans on when setting up the kit, get the drummer to play, listen to the snare coming back with compression on it, and move the mic about until you get less hat. Or buy a drum machine  (only puch the information in once and all that)... |
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8th November 2005, 01:55 AM
| #20 |
| Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Waterloo, Sydney, Australia
Posts: 114
| Great ! Thatnks for all the replys so far :D Ok, maybe I used the wrong words before, as I know that totall seperation is impossible, but it *seems* that way. I had Phishs "story of the ghost" album in my head when i was thinking of this question, so that is a good example of what i mean. I use the null zones to the max, and I have a beta56 (my only hypercardiod) that I use 90% of the time to try and kill off the spill as much as possible. De-essers always seem to kill the snare tone (that is when I use the free plug-ins that I have.. I am only a simpleton at the moment :P) and as I said, gating is pretty barbaric as well. I do appreciate all these answers thogh. I'll just keep at it. When I finally get a decent room at my disposal, i'll be interested to see if there is a marked difference. Cheers ! |
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8th November 2005, 02:22 AM
| #21 |
| Gear addict Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 419
| get the drummer to not rock on his hihat so hard, also, get him to raise it further away from the snare... overcompression is your enemy
__________________ One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain. |
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8th November 2005, 02:22 AM
| #22 |
| Gear addict Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 419
| oh yeah, track the cymbals separately hahaha
__________________ One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain. |
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8th November 2005, 06:40 AM
| #23 |
| Gear addict  Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Austin
Posts: 477
| I bet you anything you are hearing samples if it sounds like "total seperation" and it is a modern recording. You CAN get it with gates too (for top snare...add some verb to cover the gate closing). I like the gate on the Renissiance Channel. All you gotta do is replace your snare. The original snare bleed back in the hats won't matter...it's mainly hats into snare that is a bitch. Some bleed is okay... I personally hate samples unless I am turd polishing...and I am not that fond of most modern drums sounds on radio. Everybody digs that Green Day drum sound...what's the big deal? |
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