"music" and "sound engineering"

[audiothings]

can anyone explain this:

i don't really give a **** about the 'sound quality' of the records i listen to again and again. on an objective level, many of them are deficient in so many ways... too much hiss, not enough bass, clarity or detail, can't hear the bass drum or the bass, theres nothing above 8khz.... but i still feel like listening to them every so often.

at other times i'm comparing one preamp to another, waking in the middle of the night and thinking 'lavry or apogee', 'osa or sca', 'rockwool or glasswool'....

can somebody help me understand, i wake up with a song in my head everyday, and that song has nothing to do with 'sound quality', but i *think* about sound quality all thie time...

[warhead]

This has been discussed many times, but it all boils down to the music. Many singers would be better served with singing lessons than a $4500 microphone...a well tuned drum with good heads in a suitable room will sound great with a $199 pair of overhead mics...swapping out bass strings will probably net a larger effect than spending $2000 on the sweetest DI in the world...the list goes on.

It all starts with the music, and as long as you can capture it reasonably the rest of this stuff is picking nits.

My $0.02

War

[Rodney Gene]

Originally Posted by audiothings

can anyone explain this:

i don't really give a **** about the 'sound quality' of the records i listen to again and again. on an objective level, many of them are deficient in so many ways... too much hiss, not enough bass, clarity or detail, can't hear the bass drum or the bass, theres nothing above 8khz.... but i still feel like listening to them every so often.

at other times i'm comparing one preamp to another, waking in the middle of the night and thinking 'lavry or apogee', 'osa or sca', 'rockwool or glasswool'....

can somebody help me understand, i wake up with a song in my head everyday, and that song has nothing to do with 'sound quality', but i *think* about sound quality all thie time...

Other than music /gear/production forums...nobody gives a shit about what anything was recorded with or that they feel like the guitars have too much 2k or the vocal has too much reverb....

Songs first...!

Sometimes I just want to enjoy the moment and feel the energy of the music....I just don't wan't to hear how it could have been 'micd' better or that the room need more treatment or that the plugins sound thin and the vocal is overcompressed....and that the bridge is too long and that intro guitars are too quiet...and flap flap flap flap flap flap flap flap flap.

Too many folks lose touch with the beauty of music for the sake of the music.

'Thinking' about quality is great, but not inspite of the goal (which seems to have gotten blurry for some)

[Mystr Tiger]

We hear with our ears, but we listen with our hearts.

[kats]

Fidelity recording is your job. Capturing the energy of the song is subjective and creative, and IMO makes or breaks the recording.

[Yoni]

Originally Posted by Rodney Gene

Other than music /gear/production forums...nobody gives a shit about what anything was recorded with or that they feel like the guitars have too much 2k or the vocal has too much reverb....

Without a doubt. Not only do they not give a shit, 99% of people can't even grasp what they should be listening for, let alone tell the difference. Doesn't mean the engineer shouldn't give a shit, but sometimes a little perspective can wake you up from fretting over inconsequential decisions.

[cdog]

Originally Posted by audiothings

can anyone explain this:

i don't really give a **** about the 'sound quality' of the records i listen to again and again. on an objective level, many of them are deficient in so many ways... too much hiss, not enough bass, clarity or detail, can't hear the bass drum or the bass, theres nothing above 8khz.... but i still feel like listening to them every so often.

at other times i'm comparing one preamp to another, waking in the middle of the night and thinking 'lavry or apogee', 'osa or sca', 'rockwool or glasswool'....

can somebody help me understand, i wake up with a song in my head everyday, and that song has nothing to do with 'sound quality', but i *think* about sound quality all thie time...

Yeah, every time I get hung up about some little detail or microminutia in the recording or mixing process I try to force my self to get past it by realizing that in the end, no one is buying the album because of which vocal mic we used, or because I got a great kick drum sound. People would still buy the album because the music they want to hear is on it.

The more and more I work in this field as an engineer (and not as a musician), I realize my job is simply about capturing the moment and trying not to **** it up.

Everything else (gear obsession) is just about making the process more interesting, for ME, from a technical perpective, which also sometimes has the consequence of making for a better sounding recording.

[audiothings]

The more and more I work in this field as an engineer (and not as a musician), I realize my job is simply about capturing the moment and trying not to **** it up.

Everything else (gear obsession) is just about making the process more interesting, for ME, from a technical perpective, which also sometimes has the consequence of making for a better sounding recording.

hey cdog! thats pretty lucid... makes sense to me...

[Gregg Sartiano]

I agree 100%. Really. Art IS what the artist SAYS it is -- the song's the king, etc., etc.

BUT -- the general audience may not be able to tell the difference between kicks, snares, pre's, etc, but even somewhat 'musically aware' audience members know "polished" sound (i.e.: major label master quality sounds, production, mixing, and mastering) when they hear it. In songs for which the lo-fi (or medium-fi) nature is not serving the purpose of the song, lack of polished sound will distract the listener -- after all, we can't quantify why people push the channel changer on their remotes or radios, they just do.

Also, If your duties go anywhere near the vast realm of commercial (i.e.: sellable) music, it's your job to put the music's best foot forward. A great kick drum or guitar sound or synth hook, well-recorded and well-mixed, can take a song from mundane to sublime in no time. Don't fool yourself -- sounds matter. If it was all "melody" and "song," then there would still be a Brill Building or a Tin Pan Alley. It's sound, music, attitude, groove, melody, vibe, song...all of this and more within a greater cultural context, which, don't fool yourself, is a HUGE part of it -- like the frame on a picture.

[Darius van H]

IMO it's all about communicating something to your audience (be that in a club, car, on the radio, whatever)...

....being in full technical control and conscious about what's actually on your hard disk (rather then what's coming thru your speakers) can not be a bad thing...

..the more control and knowledge you have, the more you can choose whether your (or your clients) music sounds polished, lo-fi, audiophile, dull, in-yer-face...etc. rather then it just being an accident.

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

...Also, If your duties go anywhere near the vast realm of commercial (i.e.: sellable) music, it's your job to put the music's best foot forward. A great kick drum or guitar sound or synth hook, well-recorded and well-mixed, can take a song from mundane to sublime in no time. Don't fool yourself -- sounds matter. If it was all "melody" and "song," then there would still be a Brill Building or a Tin Pan Alley. It's sound, music, attitude, groove, melody, vibe, song...all of this and more within a greater cultural context, which, don't fool yourself, is a HUGE part of it -- like the frame on a picture.

I believe engineering an album is a %100 part of the creative process and the final result....sound.
All great albums have an intimate relation with the "sound" that makes them Great.
If it's only a great song without it's matching "sound" (whatever it must be)....then it's just a Demo.
..................................................Joaquin.

[audiothings]

All great albums have an intimate relation with the "sound" that makes them Great.

sure, i agree. But i wonder its more incidental than severely worked out. Famous example: Berry Gordy 'standardised' microphones across all motown studios and recordings. For a period of time, no engineer had a choice of mics... the same mic for all sources and applications (km56?). I suspect a lot of decisions were made like that. Still we have the famous 'Motown Sound'...

.02,
self.

[7 Hz]

Never, EVER, underestimate the listener.

You'll get a fright when you come across one of the 5% of the population that are very perseptive about sound (and NOT sound engineers). There's the hi-fi buffs, the musicians, and just the general listening public at large. Not everyone is a 14 year old MP3 listening pop junkie. Even the least lerned individuals can supprise by pointing out aspects of production or arrangement that producers and engineers can miss.

What good gear should do is be transparent and let everyone get on with the creative process, and try to capture it in the best way possible. This is why spending a day choosing which preamp you are using for the kick drum is just as bad as trying to record with under-par equipment.

[Shotgun]

Originally Posted by audiothings

can anyone explain this:

i don't really give a **** about the 'sound quality' of the records i listen to

Which explains your avatar....


~S

[RainbowStorm]

I view it like this. Every person that contributes to a music project should be aware of the fact that he/she is able to make the final result more or less beautiful. Music is all about creating something beautiful that reminds us of the fact that the reason why we live is love and the reason why we'll die is love. This degree of love in tone that we have already experienced we cannot totally reproduce here on earth, but we can make it cling a lot like it by combining knowledge with inner honest emotions and love for one another in the project. A lot of studio projects today fail because they are based only on making money. The aim is wrong. This often means compromises in terms of the amount of persons contributing to a project and the their impact on the final result. The overall result is further damaged by stress, inharmony and ego. I think a lot more studio projects would succeed much better when the following persons would be part of the project:

[Role: Creating]
- Artist
- Producer
- Co Producer * 2
- Session Musicians * 2

[Role: Enhancing]
- Instrument Specialist * 2
- Sound Specialist * 2
- Technical Engineer * 2
- Accoustic/monitoring Engineer * 2
- Knowledge Engineer * 2
- Decision Specialist * 2

[Role: Maintaining]
- Tracking Engineer * 2

[Role: Balancing]
- Mixing Engineer * 2

[Role: Finalizing]
- Mastering Engineer * 2

[Role: Choosing]
- Decision Specialist * 2

So in my opinion quality is the sum of the internal and external qualities within and related to a project. I don't think it's the mixing engineer's responsibility to make it all sound beautiful, it's everybody's responsibility to help make the project as high quality as possible. Even the manufacturers are responsible for delivering gear and tools that are of the highest possible quality. Getting a good sounding record I think is about finding the right aim about it and the right people to work with... It's also a lot about knowledge, love and humility.

[theblue1]

Obviously, priorities depend on role... which side of the glass you're on tends to shape your priorities.

That said, I think it's easy for either set of parties to lose track of just what the goal is -- to make music that won't let the audience go.


While the musician(s) may lose track and drill in on "perfect" vocals or instrumentals to the detriment of the song, the engineer/producer may overly focus on his own details at the expense of the overall project.

One thing I noticed when I used to take outside clients -- the less I believed in the music, the more I found myself niggling over sonic details... polishing a... what was that object? Oh yeah...

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by Shotgun

Which explains your avatar....


~S

That is F**king funny!!!!!
No offense to Bjork.

War, cdog etc....good stuff. Couldn't agree more.
Sshh!...Just don't let the manufacturers hear you. LOL!

[Bob Olhsson]

Sound quality and the way a tracking engineer works profoundly affects the quality of the performance and the impact of the final product. Great tracking doesn't require the kind of heroic mixing that has become common.

We had only KM-86s for a while and I had become notorious for buying and bringing in my own mikes. Mike McLean recently told me he was amazed when Berry Gordy went for his idea of a single mike and more equalizers. I explained to Mike that I actually thought the single mike approach worked extraordinarily well but I'm convinced the KM-86 is one of a handful of mikes you could do it with. I brought in my own mikes because it was obvious Motown was leaving Detroit and I wanted to learn how to use more common mikes.