Vocal Doubling

[monstercometh]

Hey guys, long time lurker, first time poster.

Say I want to record a double of a vocal line, and the last note of the line sustains. How would you guys go about getting the singer to sustain the note the same length on both takes?

I've contemplated asking the singer to hold the note for X beats, but I feel like that would be detracting from their focus of getting a good take.

Thanks in advance.

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by monstercometh

Hey guys, long time lurker, first time poster.

Say I want to record a double of a vocal line, and the last note of the line sustains. How would you guys go about getting the singer to sustain the note the same length on both takes?

I've contemplated asking the singer to hold the note for X beats, but I feel like that would be detracting from their focus of getting a good take.

Thanks in advance.

Welcome Monster!
Generally, vocalists can perform pretty close on back to back takes without over thinking it too much. Most doubling is not 2 seperate vocals at equal volume, but rather 1 declared lead vocal track with the doubling track at a lower volume...sometimes with a different mic or moving back from the mic a little bit for the doubling track.
Because of this, if the sustain is close, it does not have to be exactly the same to still sound right.
If you need it to be exact, maybe consider sending the vocal through a slapback setting delay.

Good luck!

[Lenzo]

A couple of things you can do if the vocalist can't match it well is when mixing the second take low and under, you can cut and paste from the main vocal to match it up at the end. Another trick is to add in a synth tone close to the vocal timbre, from say a choral sample or maybe low string sound...mixing it in low underneath to smooth the hold out. Automating your reverb, increasing it at the end a tad can also smooth out any editing.
L.

[JeffSanders]

If you fade one out slightly before the end of the last word manually, it shouldn't sound noticeable.

[vernier]

Record multiple tracks then pick the two or three that seem to work nicely together.

[Synonym Music]

If it's not that egregious a difference, I time-stretch.

[GoldenOne]

If it works for the vocal part, I may trim down and fade the longer sustained part to match the shorter sustain. If not, then I usually add a slapback delay like a previous poster added.

[work2do]

get a better vocalist. any vocalist should nail that 2/3/4/5/6 times if needed for stacks.

[DaVinci]

Just comp a bit to get the first one you're gonna use, have that play, and ask them on the next round to have their goal being matching the first take. I'm amazed how many times I've seen people just trying to sing the same thing over and over only to have the takes not really match up... when if the singer could hear THE take they were trying to match, something as simple as making sure a certain syllable is held the right length should be easy enough for any singer after a few passes.

Generally, for me, I do a bit of both... record 20-40 takes, and start comping. Often, I get good enough matches from that, but if I don't, I get one good take, and do another round focusing specifically on matching the key elements from the first round.

Doing it that way, I've never had to go round 3... well, not for timing issues anyway.

[AstralPStudios]

Originally Posted by monstercometh

Hey guys, long time lurker, first time poster.

Say I want to record a double of a vocal line, and the last note of the line sustains. How would you guys go about getting the singer to sustain the note the same length on both takes?

I've contemplated asking the singer to hold the note for X beats, but I feel like that would be detracting from their focus of getting a good take.

Thanks in advance.

IMO the time difference is what makes vocal doubling work, so as suggested have the vocalist move away from the mic a few inches, if they don't hold it exact, don't sweat it. I learned a lot about vocal tracking from a hip hop guy actually, he stacked vocals like mad. I learned a lot.

Think about panning also. Panning can add another dimension to stacked vocals .

[DaVinci]

Originally Posted by ImmortalGropher

Think about panning also. Panning can add another dimension to stacked vocals .

Not do discount importance of panning in stacked vocal sound, but...

... just be aware that the wider you pan them, the more obvious the discrepancies will become. Panned center, you may not notice the timing differences so much, but they will jump out at you the further out the panning becomes and the more you begin to distinguish between the individual tracks.

[AstralPStudios]

Originally Posted by CallMeAl

Not do discount importance of panning in stacked vocal sound, but...

... just be aware that the wider you pan them, the more obvious the discrepancies will become. Panned center, you may not notice the timing differences so much, but they will jump out at you the further out the panning becomes and the more you begin to distinguish between the individual tracks.

Truth. I didn't elaborate on that because I am feeling lazy today. lol. If they're tracked the same then you can pan them further apart, however if
there are discrepancies, stick with smaller pans between 15-20% L and R.

[mattg082]

i like to get one great vocal take and have it the loudest and then double up around it at a lower db level in the mix. i'll go as far a recording 10+ vocals on the same part with added fx and sometimes different mics in the same family like a sm7b and a sm57 paired up. as far as sounding the same i think it add character for a singer to whisper it, sing it lower, higher and add range to it. usually two vocals tracked that sound the same as my main focal point is good enough for me to not lose touch with the intended sound and then extras worked around it.


i've never had trouble mixing a vocalist with double tracks if it's a real singer. it's really hard to mess up doubles unless the singer just stubles over the words. they should be locked into the track and timing. i will admit that when tracking myself the first vox or two will take me an hour or two because i want it perfect and i'm not paying for studio time, that's why i own my own high end gear

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by CallMeAl

Generally, for me, I do a bit of both... record 20-40 takes, and start comping. Often, I get good enough matches from that, but if I don't, I get one good take, and do another round focusing specifically on matching the key elements from the first round.

Doing it that way, I've never had to go round 3... well, not for timing issues anyway.

20 - 40 takes??? Oh my God! lol

[Lenzo]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by CallMeAl

Just comp a bit to get the first one you're gonna Generally, for me, I do a bit of both... record 20-40 takes, and start comping.

I'm getting a sore throat just reading that. I hope you don't do 20-40 takes for everything...how do you get anything finished?
L.

[mattg082]

Originally Posted by CallMeAl

Just comp a bit to get the first one you're gonna use, have that play, and ask them on the next round to have their goal being matching the first take. I'm amazed how many times I've seen people just trying to sing the same thing over and over only to have the takes not really match up... when if the singer could hear THE take they were trying to match, something as simple as making sure a certain syllable is held the right length should be easy enough for any singer after a few passes.

Generally, for me, I do a bit of both... record 20-40 takes, and start comping. Often, I get good enough matches from that, but if I don't, I get one good take, and do another round focusing specifically on matching the key elements from the first round.

Doing it that way, I've never had to go round 3... well, not for timing issues anyway.

dude that is overkill. no offense but either you have room problems, latency issues, bad mic, pre or the singer is pretty bad and anal. no need to save every take! if something is bad i won't even try to save it. start out getting takes of the main idea and pick 1 or two out of a few recorded that work together and ditch the rest then start doubling from there. i will cut a singer off midpoint if it sucks and doesn't feel right and start over. it's way simpler than all that work and would take a long time with that method you are using.

[jmikeperkins]

When TRACKING try panning the track you are trying to double hard right or left and put the new vocal hard to the other side in the singer's headphones so they can clearly tell when to end holding the note. You can mix them back together later. Be sure to compress both vocals so you can hear them clearly and bring the vocal levels way up and the level of most everything else way down (except maybe the bass level as its so low its not going to get in the way and it might help keep the singer on pitch). TELL THE SINGER TO RELAX WHEN SINGING THE DOUBLE! DO NOT PUSH YOUR VOICE OR IT WILL NEVER MATCH THE ORIGINAL. A lot of singers get tense and frustrated when cutting doubles, and the longer it takes the more tense they get and the tension alters the singer's voice in a way which does not help. If the singer can't exactly match the ending of the note on the primary vocal they could start fading their voice toward the end of the double and it might work. Finally, don't get obsessive about making everything absolutely perfect. There are a lot of Beatles and Beach Boys tracks where doubles and backing vocals end at slightly different times and these are considered classics. Resist the urge to line everything up and make it "perfect" by computer manipulation because you can easily take the humanity out of your recording and make it sound like the top 40 crap coming out of Nashville or a Paris Hilton record.

[minor_glitch]

Originally Posted by Yetti

20 - 40 takes??? Oh my God! lol

Seriously
20 takes and I'm sounding like Gilbert Gottfried!