Producer types, other than sheet music, do you ever "draw" a map of a song?

[enroper]

I'm wondering if anybody does this. I'm more a visual person, and don't read music. I know some people "chart" out their songs.

For those that do, how do you do it? If you do, any chance you can scan and post and example?

The way I'm thinking of trying it is have the lyrics and maybe the simple chord changes, then draw in little glyphs to represent different nuances, like a delay here, or a crash there.

I'd love to see how anybody if at all maps out productions...


and mods, if this is the wrong forum feel free to move it to the right one.

[enroper]

guess i'm alone here with this one :P

[Mertmo]

Nope, I've done it before. I block out the chords in little squares with the
chord name in them...

Worked with a producer named Tracy Chisolm a long time ago and he blocked
out our band's songs on huge paper tablets, like you see in board meetings.
His maps were crazy!

Check out "here is what is", the Lanois movie. If I remember correctly, he's
got a big map of "not fighting anymore", maybe on the floor...? in the
scene where he's describing what he wants from Brian Blade.

[enroper]

Originally Posted by Mertmo2

Nope, I've done it before. I block out the chords in little squares with the
chord name in them...

Worked with a producer named Tracy Chisolm a long time ago and he blocked
out our band's songs on huge paper tablets, like you see in board meetings.
His maps were crazy!

Check out "here is what is", the Lanois movie. If I remember correctly, he's
got a big map of "not fighting anymore", maybe on the floor...? in the
scene where he's describing what he wants from Brian Blade.

Yes! thats exactly what inspired this idea in me, unfortunately they dont show any of the drawings. I imagine he probably considers those trade secrets. For good reason I suppose.

Any chance you have a scan of how you do it?

[SeniorityFedup]

This reminds me of when I played with my old drummer without any knowledge of theory I would get huge posterboard size paper and draw hyrogliphics and words to describe the next part of a song and at what moment.

[Mertmo]

no scans, It's been a long time since I did it.

It would be a long chain of rectangles I guess. I didn't do it enough times to
really have a set way, sometimes every chord would have it's own block.
More often the blocks would represent an entire progression, or an entire bar.
With other blocks in between designating "in between" stuff...

all very technical, I know...

[BOWIE]

I used to do this before I learned theory. But, even after a few semesters of studying music theory in college, I still draw visual maps of the songs I write when needed. To me, the music is an emotion and drawing it out helps me to keep that in mind. I will add some traditional notes and rythm where needed, but it's otherwise a very artistic representation of how the song should "feel". It comes out looking sort of like a mountain landscape with highs, lows, and all kinds of objects along the way.

[Bubbakron]

In the blues/pentatonic , whatever you call it, there are really only 8 notes(which are same as chords) to choose from. Your combination of these 8 notes are all the same in different keys. This is the scale that 99.9% of music in the western world is based in, the music that people buy. You do not need to map out this on anything but your brain, its only 8. Even the Lydian Smchidian bullshit labels are just the exact same scales, but just in differentg orders.
You are selling emotion, you have to find out what orders of those 8 notes create the most emotion- its not rocket science. Once you get a good base, as long as you stay in the same scale you can do what ever you want and it will sound good- LESS IS MORE. The best thing to do is sing along with the scale often- even if you dont sound good it will program your brain as to whats what. The only reason people had to read and write music is because they did not have recording machines like we do today!!!!!!

Any music made outside of this musical scale is for musicians only, and can not create that much emotion in the average person- if so then pink floyd would have had many diminised 7 minor chord bullshit( the only way to make that sound half way decent is to do 80's shitty metal distortion to hide what it really is). The scale that poor black people in the south a 100 years ago dominated, is now by far the musical scale that draws in the most human emotion from any culture. Its just 8 notes, write songs in your head first- then make those sounds a reality!!!!!

[wwjd]

I prefer writing a song OUTSIDE a computer first. This forces me to think through a better flow for a song. part of that includes sort of a graph page with numbers representing each measure. This helps me program the drums and it also SHOWS a VISUAL layout of the song. From there, I sometimes erase stuff and fix, and/or add all kinds of notes, lyric marks etc.

[dkelley]

I ALWAYS do it. but then I think of it as conducting an orchestra - you need the full score in front of you.

I don't detail every part, but I do detail the little bits where there is some question about it or some hook I really like and want to note for possible use elsewhere.

I also can write/read music quickly by ear which is how I make notes about details in the parts played, but otherwise I just sketch things out like you've described.

cheers,
Don

[ButchP]

Just to clarify:

pentatonic scales have 5 notes(penta means five ...tonic means tone or note)

the most common scale is the major scale which has 7 notes.Lydian is the mode thats root is the 4th note of a major scale.It is used as a substitute for a major scale in jazz frequently(and sounds great in rock also!).

IMO the scale that "dominated"what poor black people did 100 years ago has little to do with emotion.

Pink Floyd uses diminished triads and minor 7th b5 (half diminished 7th) chords....so did poor black people a 100 years ago....

BP

[Bubbakron]

Originally Posted by ButchP

Just to clarify:

pentatonic scales have 5 notes(penta means five ...tonic means tone or note)

the most common scale is the major scale which has 7 notes.Lydian is the mode thats root is the 4th note of a major scale.It is used as a substitute for a major scale in jazz frequently(and sounds great in rock also!).

IMO the scale that "dominated"what poor black people did 100 years ago has little to do with emotion.

Pink Floyd uses diminished triads and minor 7th b5 (half diminished 7th) chords....so did poor black people a 100 years ago....

BP

The major and minor are the same scale, just apllied to different keys. Floyd only used those chords on intros and little fills, basically starting w dogs(god strike me, I'm probably wrong). We are talking about basic song writing here. All Avril Lavigne/ Spears/ and all other modern music is all tightly in the blues scale. Even though those chords were used, gilmour solos were very blues scale based- not the traditional jazz method of changing his soloing scale to match those chord specifications. Blues came from poor people putting strings on sticks, and discovering how much more emotion simplicity and solos bring , rather than unified jazz sounds. Its called music "theory" , because all approachs are subjective- we could argue the details for months from our own experiences. All I'm saying is, to make great music- you can not approach from a mathmatecal point of view. Its just impossible. The devil is in the details- hear it before you try to create it!! IMO IMO IMO

[teleharmonium]

Originally Posted by Bubbakron

In the blues/pentatonic , whatever you call it, there are really only 8 notes(which are same as chords) to choose from. Your combination of these 8 notes are all the same in different keys. This is the scale that 99.9% of music in the western world is based in, the music that people buy. You do not need to map out this on anything but your brain, its only 8. Even the Lydian Smchidian bullshit labels are just the exact same scales, but just in differentg orders.
You are selling emotion, you have to find out what orders of those 8 notes create the most emotion- its not rocket science. Once you get a good base, as long as you stay in the same scale you can do what ever you want and it will sound good- LESS IS MORE. The best thing to do is sing along with the scale often- even if you dont sound good it will program your brain as to whats what. The only reason people had to read and write music is because they did not have recording machines like we do today!!!!!!

Any music made outside of this musical scale is for musicians only, and can not create that much emotion in the average person- if so then pink floyd would have had many diminised 7 minor chord bullshit( the only way to make that sound half way decent is to do 80's shitty metal distortion to hide what it really is). The scale that poor black people in the south a 100 years ago dominated, is now by far the musical scale that draws in the most human emotion from any culture. Its just 8 notes, write songs in your head first- then make those sounds a reality!!!!!

Thanks for the chuckles !

[Bubbakron]

Originally Posted by teleharmonium

Thanks for the chuckles !

Please Explain!!! What mainstream music uses intense chords that SELLS?? Your Jazz stuff on your myspace is good, but will never make you a lot of money(as any jazz)- just facts!!! I like it cause I am a musician!!!

[teleharmonium]

Originally Posted by Bubbakron

Please Explain!!! What mainstream music uses intense chords that SELLS?? Your Jazz stuff on your myspace is good, but will never make you a lot of money(as any jazz)- just facts!!! I like it cause I am a musician!!!

I wouldn't call any of that jazz. I do play jazz, but that, ain't.

As for explanation, well, briefly, scales are not chords, the scale you are referring to is minor pentatonic and it is not anywhere near 99% of all music in the western world nor all music that sells, lydian and minor pentatonic do not have the same notes, and it is asinine to suggest that anything outside of minor pentatonic is for "musicians only" ("Happy Birthday" is for musicians only ?), or that some notes inherently have more emotion than others, or that writing music is a linear contest to get the most emotion squeezed out of the same notes. If that were true, all hit songs would be about dead family members and pets, rape, war, and so forth.

The more reductive your thinking is about music, the further you get from it. If artistic impact from music could be reduced to a formula, it would have been figured out by now and we'd all be out of a job.

[Bubbakron]

Originally Posted by teleharmonium

I wouldn't call any of that jazz. I do play jazz, but that, ain't.

As for explanation, well, briefly, scales are not chords, the scale you are referring to is minor pentatonic and it is not anywhere near 99% of all music in the western world nor all music that sells, lydian and minor pentatonic do not have the same notes, and it is asinine to suggest that anything outside of minor pentatonic is for "musicians only" ("Happy Birthday" is for musicians only ?), or that some notes inherently have more emotion than others, or that writing music is a linear contest to get the most emotion squeezed out of the same notes. If that were true, all hit songs would be about dead family members and pets, rape, war, and so forth.

The more reductive your thinking is about music, the further you get from it. If artistic impact from music could be reduced to a formula, it would have been figured out by now and we'd all be out of a job.

I understand where your coming from , just diagree with you entirely. That being said, music that SELLS and good music are two completely different things. Thats why Roger Waters is doing operas now instead of rock. The music that sells is pure emotional response IMO. I do really dig your tunes, and wish more people would make what music is in their heart and brain- not their marketing needs. Its just as soon as diminished sevenths and other complex choices like that enter in a equation, the average person runs for the hills, with few exceptions. Just me I guess!! I wanna make music that sells, and make good music in my free time!!!!!Cheers

[enroper]

Oh my, I created a monster!

[BOWIE]

Originally Posted by enroper

Oh my, I created a monster!

[teleharmonium]

Originally Posted by Bubbakron

That being said, music that SELLS and good music are two completely different things.

Agreed.

I'd like to make music that sells, in theory, but I operate under the assumption that like most musicians, I have little or no commercial potential.

So, I just try to do what I like to hear. The stuff on that myspace page is the most accessible stuff I have done (and it's come a long way since those versions). I figure if I work hard eventually the material may find a bigger audience, and if not, it'll still be something I can be proud of because it is pretty much how I want to be represented. It's not there yet, but I am seeing progress of a kind I have not always had, so I feel like it's the right track.

I've got nothing against emotion, but I think there's a complex relationship between emotion going in from the artist, and what people get out of music, and there's all kinds of emotions aside from the ones prevalent in mainstream pop music, plus other things I value that are also hard to nail down.

[teleharmonium]

Oh, and as to the topic, other than actual charts, I sometimes draw simple depictions of songs to help explain an arrangement idea and the order of various repeating sections to someone; and I've also drawn out diagrams to explain how a complex edit of some kind will work, when the edit itself would take a while to execute and I want to make sure we're on the same page before starting that work. These have all been crude depictions dashed out quickly. Once a project is going in the computer, I just use the visuals of the audio tracks themselves as examples to point to in most cases.

[synthoid]

I sometimes draw arrangements out on paper without detailing all the notes, so that the parts don't fight with each other in time, i.e., so they don't overlap in ways that will make it hard for the parts to come out, and also so that they work together to create the right kind of overall rhythm. It's a nice way to organize your thinking about the sounds your going to use in an arrangement.

-synthoid

[fhames]

The ignorance in this thread is monumental. Sorry to be an asshole, but there is no substitute for real musicians who can do everything well, including reading music.

[enroper]

Originally Posted by fhames

The ignorance in this thread is monumental. Sorry to be an asshole, but there is no substitute for real musicians who can do everything well, including reading music.

Thank you for your advice, though I now choose to ignore it.

[mekohler]

When MUSE recorded Absolution they would have big white boards, mapping out the songs, and what parts did what and needed to be recorded still. I think he would also map out the arpeggios.

[Vum]

It helps to be able to draw things in non-traditional ways as it may serve to illustrate a concept that is lacking in execution or facilitate understanding to someone without formal training.

Sometimes instead of using the proper Italian terms to express your idea, a squiggly line that starts off small but gets larger gets the point across especially if you do not share a common language with the musician.

[drp audio]

Since no one else put up their notes, I’ll share an example of my production secrets with the world.

I confess, I did this a lot early on in my recording days in the late 80's as a writer/producer when I was working with MIDI. I too do not formally read music and I am self taught on the instruments that I play.

I’m sure that any good musician worth his weight in salt could easily visualize a song’s structure without having to write it down. I, on the other hand ….

Yes, I would do exactly as you describe and my notes would pretty much always be this simple (see attached photo). As simple as this illustration is, it was very helpful to me.




Fortunately for me, when computers brought DAWs into the picture, then the “picture” of the song was laid out in front of me in the form of the timeline. Markers can be your friend! So, now I rarely use these kinds of drawings and notes. Also, my song structure identification methods have been greatly improved by time I’ve spent working on recordings as well as some classes at Berklee!

I can’t recommend enough the Critical Listening course at Berklee Music!!

My shield is up now and I’m ready for the chastising …. And …. GO!

[claend]

Yup when I'm required in the producer role, I found drawing a timeline graph including bars x section, timing, tempo, comments, dynamics and emotion helps alot. I have to admit that Stephen Webber made me see the potential in doing so.

It's also incredible helpful to study songs that you love doing a graph.

Something like this:

[clearwave]

The Nashville number system is standard down here.

[mikethedrummer]

Hopefully you're talking about preproduction
If anything like this even came close to happening in my studio I'd boot the band instantly, take the days deposit, and have them book more time later once they actually wrote the songs..

With preproduction, yes. Somebody mentioned the nashville number system, i.e I IV I V. And that is great, I love it, people who know it love it. But out of all the people I've worked with, more know how to read music or at least a chord sheet than know this system.
Someone said "there is no substitute for a musician great at everything," couldn't agree more.
What I have noticed works the best is writing out a song that is intro verse chorus verse chorus bridge chorus as (A) A B A B C B. Everyone I've worked with gets that. Pretty sure I learned that system in the 1st grade.
Either way, there is no emotion on a graph or piece of paper, once you start breaking it down like that it really just kills the mood for me. I find its best to just jam out each part and verbally stop and say "okay, do this part twice, then there is the transition, then go to the chorus."

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by enroper

I'm wondering if anybody does this. I'm more a visual person, and don't read music. I know some people "chart" out their songs.

For those that do, how do you do it? If you do, any chance you can scan and post and example?

The way I'm thinking of trying it is have the lyrics and maybe the simple chord changes, then draw in little glyphs to represent different nuances, like a delay here, or a crash there.

I'd love to see how anybody if at all maps out productions...


and mods, if this is the wrong forum feel free to move it to the right one.

I like to use a graphic layout, typically with four bars to the line (depending on tempo and tempo scale). Most of my songs work out well with a line of lyric breaking at the four bar point.

Even if you're otherwise totally a music-by-ear guy, being able to count bars (on some level -- many folks have or develop a feel and don't have to explicitly count; the more you count, the more 'natural' the feel becomes and the less you have to count).

Counting always seemed somehow mysterious to me until a drummer in a punk band I was sitting in with for a few months got tired of me and the guitarist (I was on bass) losing our place in a 4 bar kick drum into. He finally said, look, it's 16 beats -- four bars. Count it like this: 1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4, 3-2-3-4, 4-2-3-4... and that made it click into place in my head just like that.


Anyhow, once you get used to laying out all your lyrics or chord arrangements on standard 4 bar lines (or whatever is appropriate for a given song) instead of the sheet music convention of putting as many bars as fit on any given line (which is really confusing to a lot of folks), being able to 'notate' the structure of your song becomes a lot easier.

BTW, when I was starting out recording, an older wiser dude suggested making production notes on the lyric sheet (it may help you to lay out the lyric sheet as I recommend above) because it will help the engineer think in the same terms as the musicians -- in terms of the song's verse/chorus/bridge structures. If an engineer says, There's a problem in the bass at 2'12" -- it means a lot less to the guys in the band than if he had said, There's a problem with the bass in the second line of the second chorus.