Three piece rock recordings with only one performance of guitars?

[danbronson]

I'm recording a three piece rock band soon, the guitarist/lead singer wants a super simple approach to recording guitars (no doubling). I've always liked how double tracking guitars and panning them hard left/right frees up the center for kick/snare/bass/vox, but I can see the appeal to keeping it simple/authentic sounding and want to give this a try.

I'm not content to do the Van Halen thing and fill one side with reverb. This is an indie rock band. If there's any ambiance it'll be a short room sound. In any case, we're set on a pretty up-front/in-your-face sound anyway so I want to keep mics pretty close for the most part. I'm also not going to let the guitars sit on one side alone. Maybe some would be okay with that, but I would feel very uncomfortable listening to a mix like that.

So right now I'm thinking the best approach is to get a close mic on the amp and one back in the room, then pan them away from center to free up space. Or maybe both mics will be back a bit and I'll make sure there's a lot of absorption around to keep things clear sounding. I don't want to pull the mics too far back though. Hmm...perhaps I'll try an XY coincident.

Anyway, with all that in mind, does anyone have any suggestions for recordings I can check out for inspiration where the engineer faced a similar situation? Or any advice in general? What would you do? Hopefully we can get some interesting discussion going on this!

[avav179]

there is an old thread where bob st.john 'talks' about working on extreme 'waiting for the punchline' or as he calls it 'extreme iv'. anywho, that album is pretty raw and simple - but sounds f*ck!n amazing. there are a few songs with only 1 guitar and it is still very full and does not feel like anything is missing (though most of that is due to nuno's amazing writing of guitar parts).
go search for that thread...

[Flying_Dutchman]

he doesn´t want to double the guitars?
i´d say tripple, left, middle, right
he´s the guitar player, not the producer, he´s just a tool to do the record
don´t let anybody else structure the record you do, secure people from hurting themselves
Peace

[vernier]

I do it all the time ...close mic a foot away and far mic on boom and either pan hard left and right or not so hard.

[Edwards]

You could also use two close mics on the amp. For example 57 and 421, or a condenser, and then pan those hard left/right.

Then you could put your room mic in center.

Another crazy idea would be to go Beatlesesque and have the drums panned hard to one side, the guitar and bass in the other, with the vocal straight up the middle. Or even that off to a side ala "Elenor Rigby's" old stereo recording.

[chout]

Many bands I do want to do everything totally live with no overdubs...I've double mic'd guitar amps, but usually only used one of the tracks, copy it and push the second one forward a little then hard pan it...sounds fine to me and no guitarists have complained yet.

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by Edwards

You could also use two close mics on the amp. For example 57 and 421, or a condenser, and then pan those hard left/right.

Then you could put your room mic in center.

what he said..works nicethumbsup

[Suspects]

A perfect situation for reamping, especially with two close mics...
Two clean direct signals, two mics (a R-121 and a 57 would be nice), and presto - four different tone options from one performance...

My $0.02



Dave/Suspect Studios




www.suspectstudios.com

[Jperkinski]

When I'm stuck in this position I like to do a "fake double" by sending the guitar mic(s) to an aux channel and then putting a unique delay like the Massey TD5 set anywhere from 15 to 30ms and maybe a few other plugins to alter the tone subtly (tape-head or maybe a light compressor or thinning EQ....then pan the aux track opposite of the close mics...

I always use two close mics on a guitar, usually a ribbon and a dynamic, but I've found that panning them opposite doesn't sound very wide, at least if you have them placed close to each other in near perfect phase.

It's also great if you can get a nice room mic for the guitar and pan that opposite the close mics as long as it's not super fast aggressive music.

Either method can help make the guitar sound bigger and get it out of the center and clear up room for drums and vocals.

mono is cool sometimes thought too.

[thiagoabreu]

you could listen to some Red Hot Chilli peppers stuff... produced by rick rubin
It may be not as heavy as the stuff you`ll record but you can get some ideas from the raw productions of rubin
most of the californication album is very raw yet sounds amazing on speakers

[BLUElightCory]

Another vote for a close mic on the amp and an omni several feet back, panned. This technique works great for songs with a single guitar performance.

[KRStudio]

Blumlein is great for this, especially ribbons.
Jeff

[rainsinvelvet]

Originally Posted by KRStudio

Blumlein is great for this, especially ribbons.
Jeff

[riffmachine]

I would suggest checking out King's X's album Dogman. Brendan O'Brian produced and I remember hearing some really interesting panning choices and instrument balancing. There was definitely doubling going on in the songs, but it's a great example of a 3 piece band with some really interesting production approaches. - paul

[MHU]

Andy Timmons did record only one guitar track on his album Resolution, he confirms the information in a video interview, he talks about the recording process in this video;

[Jonathawkes]

Deerhoof will pan the guitar off to one side and the bass off to the other.
There are some nirvana tracks done this way as well.

to me, though, this only works if there is a lot of tone or melody in the bass, which there often is in a 3 piece band. I also find it leaves more room for the kick drum and also allows for "fatter" guitar tones; as each instrument has its own place - in the stereo field - to exist.

[bash]

Split the signal and record two amps, pan.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

he doesn´t want to double the guitars?
i´d say tripple, left, middle, right
he´s the guitar player, not the producer, he´s just a tool to do the record
don´t let anybody else structure the record you do, secure people from hurting themselves
Peace

How do you know he's not the producer? The OP could just be engineering or co-producing.

[andychamp]

Old ZZTop records.

[Empora]

You can also try having the guitarist split the signal between 2 amps.

This way the tone can be varied too (eg- one more overdriven than the other) then pan them either side. I found it good to have one of the two miced further back capturing more ambience and one close miced. I find it gives you a great stereo feel

Listen to some shellac too

[d. gauss]

free. paul kossoff..."all right now"

[gregj]

Check out the Minutemen: Double Nickels on the Dime

Great 3-piece album.
'Bout as simple and rockin' as it gets.

GregJ

[danbronson]

Thanks for the responses so far. I'm taking everything into account. I was really surprised to find out that the guitars on Californication are mostly one track panned center!

[mattg082]

I would say micing technique is the way to go and most important in this instant. like some had already said and off the top of my head...close mic and far mic to get a room sound to make is sound bigger or roomy and then panning of your choice. i would say he won't know if you do double in a discrete way but hey he is the client and if he wants it that way then do it... if it doesn't work out great and becomes a nightmare to mix tell him how it is what the problem is and take it from there. some musicians think they are really smart and heard there favorite band did something in an article somewhere and these things come up. I had a duo that came in and wanted to have a white stripes garage sound and thought using all crappy mics would be the way to do this along with no bass, go figure. They ended up cutting a bass and everything changed accept the crappy drum mics stayed on. i ended up getting not nearly as much as i should of for the demo and all the actual production and clean up of the band i did in general. they ended up getting a lot of gigs off the demo and even 5 plays as the stage house band for that demo...i thought it wasn't great and was too hard on myself but looked like it worked and should have charged more...lesson learned i suppose.

[duffy878]

Originally Posted by Empora

You can also try having the guitarist split the signal between 2 amps.

thumbsup

and use two mics on each amp (57 and 421?) as well as room mics.

That should give you enough to pan/blend/mix however you want. If it sounds like too much you can always cut excess tracks later, but more is always better to start.

[RockManDan]

Originally Posted by mattg082

I would say micing technique is the way to go and most important in this instant. like some had already said and off the top of my head...close mic and far mic to get a room sound to make is sound bigger or roomy and then panning of your choice. i would say he won't know if you do double in a discrete way but hey he is the client and if he wants it that way then do it... if it doesn't work out great and becomes a nightmare to mix tell him how it is what the problem is and take it from there. some musicians think they are really smart and heard there favorite band did something in an article somewhere and these things come up. I had a duo that came in and wanted to have a white stripes garage sound and thought using all crappy mics would be the way to do this along with no bass, go figure. They ended up cutting a bass and everything changed accept the crappy drum mics stayed on. i ended up getting not nearly as much as i should of for the demo and all the actual production and clean up of the band i did in general. they ended up getting a lot of gigs off the demo and even 5 plays as the stage house band for that demo...i thought it wasn't great and was too hard on myself but looked like it worked and should have charged more...lesson learned i suppose.

dude, seriously. Punctation. Spaces. Paragraphs. Look into them.

[Studio Addict]

Mono! Don't be afraid!

[Jim Williams]

I've got a few CD's of my blues band recording live in the room from the early 1990's. They are sonically first rate as the sound is raw and live, yet refined and clear. I used a Delta 200 16 channel console with a tweaked LXP-1 reverb into a DAT machine. We set up some recording condensers and ran the PA live but oriented the speakers for minimum leakage. Only vocals came out of the PA, the rest was miced up guitar amps and the bass was DI'ed.

I'm one of those guitarists that plays 2 things at once, rhythm and lead consecutivly, sort like how Hendrix did it. Overdubs would be crowding that mix as I'm very busy on the guitar playing every chord, passing line and fill, all at the same time. The 3 piece also included the lead singer's blue's harp so it did have some extra stuff going on.

There is a reason you don't see this very often anymore, it's very hard to do and you must be an absolutely first rate player with stamina as you can fatigue quickly doing 2 things at once.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[mattg082]

Originally Posted by RockManDan

dude, seriously. Punctation. Spaces. Paragraphs. Look into them.

nah (comma) i'm in a hurry and would rather piss grammar ****s off

[gollumsluvslave]

Even super-produced stuff like Vertigo by u2 (squashed as it is) is only a single guitar track panned hard left.

Doesn't sound like it but it is.

Ben Harper is great for single guitar track ideas too IMO, both Welcome to the Cruel World and The Will to Live are very humbling for anyone in terms of sound and arrangement.