Getting a raw, nasty '70s funk sound in the box

[initialsBB]

Inspired by recent threads about Daptone, vintage breaks, etc. I thought it would be fun to try to get that sort of a sound in the box. I would also love to hear what other people have done in a similar vein. Doesn't have to be funky, but, just the general idea of trying to get an old sound ITB.

I tried to restrict myself as much as possible. All plugins are built-in Ableton Live effects, except for the drums which are Custom & Vintage, and the reverb which is a couple of free impulses run through a free convolution plug. Organ is a cheesy FM patch from Live's Operator plug. Guitars and bass were all recorded direct into MH 2882. Percussion & vox used a 635a or mk012 straight into the 2882.

I mixed it on phones and was having a lot of trouble with the midrange as usual, but let me know what you think, what can be improved, how to make it sound more authentic, etc.

[Dean Roddey]

Hard to tell on my little bedroom speakers, but it sounds pretty convincing. It would make a great Blacksploitation flick soundtrack :-) BTW, slightly OT, but can someome tell me... who *is* the black private dick, that's the sex machine with all the chicks?

[Mr.HOLMES]

For my taste on my genelcs 8040 the guitars don't glue with the rest of the action, they stick to much out for my taste.

For all in the DAW not bad..... I miss some middle information hard panning in the daw seems to make the middle information clean as fresh clothes...or may you forgot to set up the verbs post
pan????

Interesting experiment it has some old vibe.

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

I miss some middle information hard panning in the daw seems to make the middle information clean as fresh clothes...or may you forgot to set up the verbs post pan????

Not sure what you mean there? Can you clarify?

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

BTW, slightly OT, but can someome tell me... who *is* the black private dick, that's the sex machine with all the chicks?

Shut your mouth.

[recall]

Very convincing feel to this track. Well done. What I like about it is the "abandon" of it. I think the point Mr.Holmes raised about the guitars not gelling is exactly what makes it good. That is, things poke out, it sounds crunchy in places, which is exactly what an old 45 does. Good going.

[u b k]

I think you're on a good track. Where it falls totally short for me is the drums, they sound both modern and canned, which kills it.

Idioms are cool.

You need to get those drums sounding small, boxy, dry. No ring, no sizzle, no honk, just splat, thwack, and thud.

Consider reworking the hat pattern into a driving CHIK-uh-CHIK-uh 16th note affair.

More mono-ish would be good. Also, the layers of distortion and dirt sound individual. See if you can back them off then add on overall layer that also pulls everything together more.

In summary: needs grease, and lots of it.


Gregory Scott - ubk

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

For my taste on my genelcs 8040 the guitars don't glue with the rest of the action, they stick to much out for my taste.
.

you've never listened to Funcadelic then !!! Guitars louder than dirty tits.....

all good - but the drums..... Bass sounds aces!!

[Brad McGowan]

I don't know, Greg. Those drums sound pretty lo-fi to me. If they are canned drums I'm not really minding it once everything else kicks in.

I don't even think I could make something sound that nasty and 70's even with my 70's tape deck and 70's mics.

Good work! I dig it. thumbsup I'd love to hear some details about what kind of treatment you used to get things sounding crunchy.

Brad

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by u b k

You need to get those drums sounding small, boxy, dry. No ring, no sizzle, no honk, just splat, thwack, and thud.

Yeah, dry boxy drums are pretty easy but I was having trouble nailing that big overly reverby nasty, tin-can-sounding snare kind of thing from early Funkadelic records. Like this sort of thing YouTube - Funkadelic - Funkadelic - 05 - Good Old Music

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by initialsBB

Not sure what you mean there? Can you clarify

I am not a native speaker....
And it is just a taste thing.

If I listen to older records there is also with hard panning to me something in the middle.
The room where it has been recorded in makes a ribbon thorough the mix.
May you can achieve this in combination with delays.

May UBK as native speaker knows what I mean and can help me out with my limited English vocabulary.


Anyway I like the way you did it.

[MarkRB]

Like it! Really sleazy sounding.

It's still too wide to sound truly authentic though. Particularly the bottom end. Maybe pan the drums in a fair bit (mono!!!) and grunge up the bottom end?

The buss compression is just a shade too far as well.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by narcoman

you've never listened to Funcadelic then !!! Guitars louder than dirty tits.....

I did as an guitar player and to my ear the guitars where not sticking that much out...just my feeling to it...sorry.

[norman_nomad]

Really nice considering how you limited yourself!

But I agree that it's too polished and too limited on the MB. Guitars have a nice roll off but need more 'grind'. Drums are too nice... needs more ugly.

Nice sleazy feel though.

[Batchainpuller78]

Originally Posted by u b k

Consider reworking the hat pattern into a driving CHIK-uh-CHIK-uh 16th note affair.

That's what it needs drive it yet still be laid back.

cool sound all round BB, also love how some of those guitars pop out and scream at ya.

And I'm with MarkRB here, it might be a tad to wide and to big as well with a bit of lowpass it was already more there. But who cares, keep the rumble and make some sick stuff like that thumbsup

[Dean Roddey]

Just for laughs, here's an early attempt of mine down this road, called Hot Buttered Rocks. Mostly MIDI, but still kind of cool in a primitive sort of way.

http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Tmp...Rocks_bcgm.mp3

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

Just for laughs, here's an early attempt of mine down this road, called Hot Buttered Rocks. Mostly MIDI, but still kind of cool in a primitive sort of way.

http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Tmp...Rocks_bcgm.mp3

Crazy where does this plastic sounds came from??

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

I'd love to hear some details about what kind of treatment you used to get things sounding crunchy.

Lots and lots of distortion.

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

If I listen to older records there is also with hard panning to me something in the middle.

I think I see what you mean. There's not much middle, especially since there's not a lead vocal or something throughout. I guess that fits in with what other people said about it being too wide.

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

Just for laughs, here's an early attempt of mine down this road, called Hot Buttered Rocks.

Haha, cool. That's definitely hot buttered!

[Brad McGowan]

What generated the distortion?

thanks,
Brad

[initialsBB]

The built-in Ableton saturator plugin. The guitars have some fuzz pedals on them though. Russian Big Muff, Duncan Octavio, maybe some Fulltone OCD. That and the permanently brain-warping effects of a misspent youth growing up in San Jose.

[DaVinci]

Haha...

the bohemian lovechild of Paul Pena, Curtis Mayfield, and the Chambers Brothers.

love it

[FireMoon]

I agreer about the drum sound.... Good reference for what you are looking for, is the EzyDrummer/Superior Drummer vintage kit with very little room.

[initialsBB]

So, actually I was hoping this thread could kick off some kind of discussion on the larger issues of trying to mimic vintage sounds in the box, tape emulation, analog vs. digital, plugins vs. hardware, plugin vs. plugin, etc.

Assuming I got say 50% of the way there, what makes up that other 50%? I would say straight off the bat, obviously musicianship is a biggie. If the playing were better that would make a big difference, as would obviously real live drums. Then using real amps and a real organ would easily make a huge difference. And of course I can't really mix and don't have a proper monitoring environment so some of the balance issues and stuff like that would be easily sorted out by someone who actually knew what they were doing.

But what about analog gear and tape? Is there some obvious missing quality that tape would impart, or just something subtle? Or is this kind of sound too shitty to matter? Obviously workflow is an issue, and maybe I would get better results faster with outboard gear. But sonically what would all of the period correct vintage gear add? The final 10%? More? Maybe it's something I just can't hear?

I guess I get confused by all of the threads where people ask how they can get a "tape" sound or a "vintage" sound and people say they just have to use tape, or something like the Anamod, and there's no way to get it in the box. But then I hear examples of real tape or the highly regarded tape emulators and they're very subtle. And some of the really cool sounding old records are anything but subtle. They're all broad strokes and over the top choices. And the flip side of that is modern recordings made to tape with all analog gear which sound completely clean and modern and sterile.

So what do you think? If I continued down this path can I get 90% of the way there? 100%? Will there always be some ineffable analog quality that I can't quite reach? Or is everyone just being polite and I'm way off the mark, and it's impossible to get even 10% of the way there without sounding harsh and obviously digital?

[u b k]

All of these are equally important:

1) Musicians (at the risk of getting my ass creamed, I've not ever heard a group of white guys pull this sound OR groove off, the grease is always stiff somehow. Nasty funk was always made by groups of brothers throwing it down 100% live)

2) Music (if it ain't 100% nasty funk, it won't sound like 100% nasty dirty funk)

3) Acoustics (can you say dead? carpet and foam and mattresses in the basement DEAD).

4) Gear (I think dynamic mics and low end transistor gear were almost exclusively employed)

5) Techniques (it was all mixed very band-limited, no deep bass, no extended highs, just boxy low mids, honky mid mids, and bitey presence)

6) Drugs (weed, booze, acid, coke, probably in that order)

7) Soul Power (you either got it, or you don't. These cats didn't work to create a sound, they worked to find a groove, and the sound simply reflected what was happening in the room).


Someone here on the slutz once said that in the 70's, all you had to do to sound 70's was grab some instruments and press record.

He's right.

The key to the universe is in that understanding.


Gregory Scott - ubk

[initialsBB]

Let's put the music (and definitely race) aside for the second though and focus on 3, 4, & 5. Personally I don't even make this kind of music, it was meant as more of an illustration. And anyway, something like Raw Power sounds every bit as nasty and of it's time as Funkadelic.

Originally Posted by u b k

Someone here on the slutz once said that in the 70's, all you had to do to sound 70's was grab some instruments and press record.

So what conclusion do we draw from that today though? Buy all of that vintage gear and hit record? Why then do some people who have all of that vintage gear make records that sound nice and contemporary? #2 is obviously the biggest factor, but what's the balance between points 3 & 5?

I guess I'm trying to get at a philosophical issue. Is digital recording, mixing, and processing a blank slate of sorts that we can learn to fill in however we like? Or is there some kind of fundamental deficiency with digital that prevents it from perfectly mimicking analog?

I think there are two approaches. A process based approach where you always pick the appropriate tool for the job at hand. And a more sound design based approach where you work with a more generic, neutral toolset, but learn to use it to achieve whatever you want. Can you go too far to one side or another? Does the balance lie somewhere in between?

[TBlizz]

Not an "In the Box" article, but perhaps helpful: Shitty is Pretty

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by u b k

All of these are equally important:

1) Musicians (at the risk of getting my ass creamed, I've not ever heard a group of white guys pull this sound OR groove off, the grease is always stiff somehow. Nasty funk was always made by groups of brothers throwing it down 100% live)

hoooo hoooo - maybe not a group o' whities - but hell, just check some of Carol Kayes output in funkland {sessioned on LOADS of underground cuts} - or Bob Babbitt.....


.... and in the modern world Jon Spencer can kick out a filthy funk or two....

[Batchainpuller78]

Oh man I've had heated discussions about that with conservatorium musicians, me claiming that most black musicians had an infinite better groove than white cats (I'm white myself) but it's not even a discussion the proof is there, hundreds and hundreds of albums of proof, okay occasionally there is a funky white cat (the exception to the rule) take blues, jazz & funk it's just owned by the black community, although I would point a finger these days that they **** up a great heritage of musicianship and style with that rap/hiphop garbage.
it's all about the feel and timing, the Rhythm!
seems pretty natural to me for people coming from a culture where they are brought up singing, dancing and beating the drums versus a culture of repression of that spirit and ff'in recorder lessons in school.

[Magnus]

I think the track kicks ass! Sly would be proud

[Steab]

Nice track, and your vintagy approach is interesting! Still not 100% there though..
Would be even more interesting if you uploaded the tracks and we all gave it a vintage-style go, should be fun and out of the ordinary!

[Tom VDH]

I dig the track the way it is. A little more attitude on the drums would be welcome as well as more minimal and extreme pannings (hard left/right or dead center).

Now for answering your question and throwing my 2 cents in the discussion I'd say that digital IS your clean slate and one needs to fill it with whatever he/she feels will make the sound of the record.

Like UBK said, these records were made cheap, with primery focus on the vibe.

Dead acoustics, lots of THD coming from the recording chain (console, tape recorder) and a glue coming from people playing together.

Good modern analog gear gives pristine recordings. You'll need more work to turn them into dirty sounds, especially if the source itself is clean than if you start with the right source and use the right 'dirty' recording tools.

You're on the right track, don't think of it too much...

Cheers!