How to "reproduce" studio vocal sound live

[brutze]

Here's the studio chain.

U47>Vovox cable>610Pre>LA2A on limit>SSl EQ Gently>1176 slow attack fast release>deesser>send to slapback delay (a little)>send to plate reverb (a little)

It sounds gigantic, smooth and clear(ssl with LA2a), rocking (tubes) & punchy (1176).

What to do live?
Not sure about using tube stuff in a show. Or having so much cable to go wrong.

Was thinking:
1) TC Helicon stuff? (voicelive)
2) Portico pre with portico compressor before and after analog eq?
(Stuff I have)
3)Mic will no doubt be a Beta58 or similar. Rock. Spill. etc.

Any suggestions/comments?

[psycho_monkey]

Depends on where you're playing.

It's not going to sound the same of course, whatever pre/compressor you use, so no point carrying lots of expensive gear with you.

I'd do some tests with your planned vocal mic, and get the most compact good sounding system. A portico setup isn't a bad place to start.

bear in mind it does depend on where you're playing. A small club gig is likely to be less accommodating than an arena tour!

[brutze]

Thanks. It's always a great relief when someone writes back at all.

Ok let's say small club.
Whole band is on in ears.

I just did side by side recordings using a Beta58
TC voice correct was for 200 bucks a complete surprise. Actually very good when used moderately.
That's a bit worrying though. I know from guitars that multi effects and digital stuff just makes me ill. I have to have analog chain and real tubes. (Which means always carrying spares and the like). Maybe I do indeed have cloth ears.

Setting the portico comp for limiting and compression requires care.
I'm still a bit nervous about feedback.
The digital signal from the TC does have a smidgen of latency which I feel may be the kiss of death to monitor signals.

Eq is also a different story. In the studio I can push wideband 4 or 5db at 7 and also 12k. With a HPF and little dip around 300-400. The high boosts would make me feedback nervous.

Hmmm

[Yeah, right...]

Hi

For live vox I either use a TC Electronic Harmony G (Usually for solo/duo gigs) or a Mindprint Envoice (Bigger gigs, + those with band). In all cases I use a Beta 58 and Vovox cables both into and out of the pre...

I am VERY happy with the result and can recommend either approach.

Check the live tracks on my myspace site. The vocal recording chain for these was:

Beta 58 > Vovox > Mindprint DTC > Vovox > FOH

Good luck. Mike

[brutze]

Go kiwis!!! Choice.
Where in Germany are you?
I lived for 2 years in windy wellington.

greets anyhow.

Any problems with feedback from the tc device?
What size venues are you doing?

[Yeah, right...]

Originally Posted by brutze

Go kiwis!!! Choice.
Where in Germany are you?
I lived for 2 years in windy wellington.

greets anyhow.

Any problems with feedback from the tc device?
What size venues are you doing?

I'm in Darmstadt, when I'm here.

Wellington is my home town.

With the G-Harmony, I tend not to use the onboard eq & compression preset, but rather leave that to the FOH, so can't comment on feedback probs. The small range of effects though are excellent, as is the onboard mic pre. It has the welcome ability to make some pretty dodgy house systems sound MUCH better.

TC also make a unit called, if my memory serves me correctly, "Voice Live" or something like that. I did look at it but it seemed unnecessarily complicated for what I do and went with the much smaller (& cheaper) G-Harmony.

My venue sizes cover the spectrum: from small clubs & bars to large festivals,and all in between.

PM me if you want.

Good luck, Mike

[vernier]

Originally Posted by brutze

Here's the studio chain.

U47>Vovox cable>610Pre>LA2A on limit>SSl EQ Gently>1176 slow attack fast release>deesser>send to slapback delay (a little)>send to plate reverb (a little)

It sounds gigantic, smooth and clear(ssl with LA2a), rocking (tubes) & punchy (1176).

What to do live?
Not sure about using tube stuff in a show. Or having so much cable to go wrong.

Was thinking:
1) TC Helicon stuff? (voicelive)
2) Portico pre with portico compressor before and after analog eq?
(Stuff I have)
3)Mic will no doubt be a Beta58 or similar. Rock. Spill. etc.

Any suggestions/comments?

Had the same problem til I found an old mixer from the sixties. Vocals went from skinny to large.

[valthesoundman]

I'd look into a condenser mic.
They need trying to see what suits our vocal best, but look at

Neumann KMS 105
Shure Beta 87
eum, other ones...

That, into a DBX 376 preamp, with tube, EQ, de-esser and overeasy comp, is often a good solution for a lot of singers I work with without going overboard on the $$$.

I can vouch for it, and the 376 is road ready, mine has help up great to 5 years on the road...

[u b k]

I'd look into the little Summit pieces, the GT Brick, and the Blue Robbie.


Gregory Scott - ubk

[stagefright13]

I think EVERYTHING sounds better live. Wouldn't worry much about bringing studio gear to a show. I think it is more about studio gear's attempt at making that sound. At least if you got a good live guy. That makes ALL the difference. And That is an understatement for sure.

John

[Darm]

maybe a focusrite liquid mix with a laptop? and give it all to the sound guy?

[mdoelger]

Originally Posted by Darm

maybe a focusrite liquid mix with a laptop? and give it all to the sound guy?

... suffer from heavy latency? don't think it's a good idea.

[Darm]

Sorry, I meant a liquid channel The Liquid Channel Revolutionary Liquid Channel Strip
Seems like you need a computer only for editing, but it works standlone, and has been already used on tours

[u b k]

I just realized I read the o.p.'s question wrong and thought he was asking how to get a studio vocal to 'sound live'.

Trying to get a live vocal to sound like the studio is pure folly, and defeats the whole point of a live show, which is to sound 'live' so that the other people in the room can connect with you on a basic, human, emotive level.

It's good to want your vocals clear, smooth, and intelligible, but how on earth can they sound like they're coming from a studio environment when the average small stage is about the least clean, least isolated, least controlled situation you could ask for when it comes to acoustics?

I'd focus on two things:

1) mic technique

2) presence, aka charisma, aka magnetism

#1 will keep the sound in a good place, levels steady, articulation clear.

#2 will make people sit up and take notice.

Nothing is more important than #2. Nothing.


Gregory Scott - ubk

[George Necola]

I've madE a lot of front of house gigs (10 people to 50'000 people festivals).
The crowd does not hear your one million dollar vocal chain but they recognize how you act and perform on stage. I think wether Freddy Mercury nor Pink Floyd did care about the vocal chain when performing live..

The crowd cant hear it..

[lordward]

Originally Posted by George Necola

I've madE a lot of front of house gigs (10 people to 50'000 people festivals).
The crowd does not hear your one million dollar vocal chain but they recognize how you act and perform on stage. I think wether Freddy Mercury nor Pink Floyd did care about the vocal chain when performing live..

The crowd cant hear it..

Thank you for stating that fact.

Unless you are sure the p.a. and the venue are TOP notch then it's like using the best Neve stuff to record and then let the listener listen to an mp3 at 56kbps quality. No one will be getting off on it.

DW

[brutze]

Thanks for all the great responses.

It's pretty clear that tech for the most part is secondary to the talent.
I heard a story from a friend of mine that was engineering a session with Eurythmics.
Annie L. was warming up in another room and he asked Mr. Stewart whether she had a mic preference. U67 etc. etc.?
The answer he got was..."it doesn't matter, it sounds good anyway".
(Should have used a Tandy cassette recorder mic :-)) .


I think we're going to have to use a condenser to get the right sound.
That means we need to use plexy drumshields and "silent" speaker cabs for the smaller venues.
Style is the thing.

Which condensers have best off access rejection?
I read that the Rhode HyperCardioid is very good on this.
From soundwise the neumann does a stellar job. I've used it for location recordings but never with pop/rock. In this case there is a hard hitting drummer and amps to contend with.

Looking for Sylvian, Bowie, Ferry, Norah Jones, Chrissie Hynde, sort of deeper, intimate, personal sound.

[George Necola]

sorry for the generalized answer again. you need to find the mic that fits her the best. simply as that.

every voice has a different frueqency response. you should go with the Annie Lenox comment.
the Rhode made in china will not help you.

cheers
G

Originally Posted by brutze

Thanks for all the great responses.

It's pretty clear that tech for the most part is secondary to the talent.
I heard a story from a friend of mine that was engineering a session with Eurythmics.
Annie L. was warming up in another room and he asked Mr. Stewart whether she had a mic preference. U67 etc. etc.?
The answer he got was..."it doesn't matter, it sounds good anyway".
(Should have used a Tandy cassette recorder mic :-)) .


I think we're going to have to use a condenser to get the right sound.
That means we need to use plexy drumshields and "silent" speaker cabs for the smaller venues.
Style is the thing.

Which condensers have best off access rejection?
I read that the Rhode HyperCardioid is very good on this.
From soundwise the neumann does a stellar job. I've used it for location recordings but never with pop/rock. In this case there is a hard hitting drummer and amps to contend with.

Looking for Sylvian, Bowie, Ferry, Norah Jones, Chrissie Hynde, sort of deeper, intimate, personal sound.

[brutze]

That's fine.
But even with good technique. There can be gigantic difference in sound.

Sure you can just stick a 58 directly into the desk. Sure Beyonce is still going to sound amazing.
But some sound like an announcer at trade fair through a direct 58 and need a little more help to get their character across.
Not talking about Beyonce.
What do you do with someone who needs to sing quietly?

And are you telling me that people are using no compression or eq or reverb or delays on live vocals?
Are people able to use condensers with louder rock? I've been told no.
But that's why I'm talking about drum shields and silent cabs.

Intimate close miked compressed style vocals on top of loud rock band.
Looking for tips.

Solutions? Ok I'll just go and try every mike there is, and then tell them to get better technique.
Then when they ask me where I got that attitude problem I'll say...

[George Necola]

I hoped to clear up things, not to offend you.

all the other posters have tried to help you. I've done shitty black metal to "intimate" (your words) stadium pop.

I used Behringer desks, I used MIDAS desks.. I used yamaha 7's and digidesign venues.. I had TL audio outbard and UREI 1176 outboard.. I had no outboard.

people didn't care. I get compliments if the band plays fine. I get the blame when the band plays shitty.

get in ear monitoring, a sennheiser condensor (if your really need a condensor) and buy your channelstrip (a mikee sounds fine to me and is practical in touring situation). you can also buy a DW fearn and a retro STA level as your vocal input channel strip.. but I will guarantee you, that no one in public will hear the difference.

intimate vocals: good vocal technique, in ear monitoring, compress the living shit out of the vocals and ride them during the show.

my statements are all meant with much respect of your work and your singer. don't get me wrong. I do not want to offend you or the singer.

cheers
G

Originally Posted by brutze

That's fine.
But even with good technique. There can be gigantic difference in sound.

Sure you can just stick a 58 directly into the desk. Sure Beyonce is still going to sound amazing.
But some sound like an announcer at trade fair through a direct 58 and need a little more help to get their character across.
Not talking about Beyonce.
What do you do with someone who needs to sing quietly?

And are you telling me that people are using no compression or eq or reverb or delays on live vocals?
Are people able to use condensers with louder rock? I've been told no.
But that's why I'm talking about drum shields and silent cabs.

Intimate close miked compressed style vocals on top of loud rock band.
Looking for tips.

Solutions? Ok I'll just go and try every mike there is, and then tell them to get better technique.
Then when they ask me where I got that attitude problem I'll say...

[George Necola]

Then when they ask me where I got that attitude problem I'll say...

... oh btw.. where did you get that attitude problem ?

[brutze]

oops

[brutze]

Oops

[brutze]

Oops

[manganeech]

This is my approach for small to medium clubs with no separate monitor board.

Something that helps me a huge amount is to isolate the monitor and Front Of House Vox somewhat. What I mean by this is to run into a (quality) board preamp (or outboard if you have it) on VOX channel 1. I then patch the pre EQ Direct Out from VOX 1 into the line in of the next channel on the board (we'll call it VOX 1b).

Now I deselect the Main Mix channel routing button on VOX 1 so it can no longer be heard in FOH. This channel is now used only to adjust pre amp gain and to feed the monitors.

VOX 1b is sent only to the main mix and not the monitors.

Now I have the flexibility to EQ the monitors and FOH vocals independently.

To get bigger vocals in this set up I often insert a dbx 160x on VOX 1b , roll off some lows, and add a little high shelf (if the channel EQ is not too rancid). I often use two aux effect sends:
1.) to add a bit of delay (30-60ms), small room, or plate to build up the vocals. I often go for a brighter sound for this send so as not to create mud.
2.) to a warmer large hall reverb with between 1.7sec and 3.4sec decay (depending on musical style). This reverb is used to smooth out the sound and is usually barely audible.

The beauty of this system is that none of what I do to this channel (Vox 1b) affects what is going on on stage. Compression in the monitors is a surefire way to get feedback and encourage sloppy mic technique. I like the singer to hear exactly what she is putting into the mic in her monitors.

You can also EQ Vox 1 to suit the singers taste/hearing or deal with problem freqs. without effecting the FOH.

-
Something to remember if you are new to small stage sound is that you are not mixing one sound system, you are blending two sound systems (FOH and Monitors).

The crowd will be hearing a lot of lows and low mids directly off the back of the monitor boxes - so you may need to roll more of those freqs out of the vocals in the mains to clear up muddiness. Also, loud monitors will reflect off of the back wall and come back into the house delayed by approximately 2x the depth of the stage at 1 ms per foot. (~24ms for a 12 foot deep stage) from the mains. If you get really lucky that delay fattens up your vocals without needing additional processing! Fat f**king chance. Mostly this is just an out of phase mess. Your best bet is to beg, seduce and threaten the band into turning down so that you can actually hear the mains over the stage volume.

Good luck. Stage and studio are two different beasts.

[brutze]

That was the sort of stuff I'm looking for.
Nice one. Thanks so much.
We have been using inears exclusively. No onstage monitors.
So the feedback isn't so much of an issue.

[George Necola]

Originally Posted by brutze

That was the sort of stuff I'm looking for.
Nice one. Thanks so much.
We have been using inears exclusively. No onstage monitors.
So the feedback isn't so much of an issue.

Yeah, but you will have feedback from the FOH PA system. And the Y-snake to split the vocals should be standard by any means..

Are you doing the FOH job?

[brutze]

Originally Posted by George Necola

I used Behringer desks, I used MIDAS desks.. I used yamaha 7's and digidesign venues.. I had TL audio outbard and UREI 1176 outboard.. I had no outboard.

people didn't care. I get compliments if the band plays fine. I get the blame when the band plays shitty.

get in ear monitoring, a sennheiser condensor (if your really need a condensor) and buy your channelstrip (a mikee sounds fine to me and is practical in touring situation). you can also buy a DW fearn and a retro STA level as your vocal input channel strip.. but I will guarantee you, that no one in public will hear the difference.

intimate vocals: good vocal technique, in ear monitoring, compress the living shit out of the vocals and ride them during the show.

my statements are all meant with much respect of your work and your singer. don't get me wrong. I do not want to offend you or the singer.

cheers
G

Thanks. I do very much appreciate this. Sorry I lost my rag before.
Had a tough week.

We're working on it. One of the reasons I keep coming back to slutz is because of the great wealth of info and experience I've found here.
Sometimes it gets a bit firey (I know I do). I think some folks here get tired of hearing the same old newbie questions.

It is difficult sometimes to form an opinion on something based on what one finds with the search engine.
So. Experts out there. Please be patient with the less experienced.

In the end I only going to go on what actually happens in the real world.
But what we get from slutz is a little bit of a headstart.

Cheers

[brutze]

Methods for preventing "Compressed to ****" vocal mikes from feedbacking in the FOH?

In ear monitoring, Drumshield, Quiet guitar amps, FOH speaker position, Decent focussed mic, not too much reverb/delays, well eq'd...
anything else?

Gated? Have I missed something? At least I know now that some guys are compressing a heap on live vox. I've always been told noooo not possible.
Feedback feedback.

[brutze]

Any reason why I can't actually use a LA2A and an 1176 on vocals live?