Getting that Beck "Sea Change" / 70's "dead" drum sound.

[lpettipoole]

I record all my band's material, and we are going for a sound similar to "Golden Age" off of Beck's album Sea Change.

We have an excellent drummer (I know this is a piece of the pie), and I plan to help him deaden the drumkit quite a bit more than normal. I figure we will just use an excessive amount of moongels on his toms, but as far as the kick and snare... His go-to set is a Pork Pie maple with an 18x18 kick and a 5x13 snare. I argue that both of these drums will be too small. Advice there?

MiKing...I assume no room mics, should I mic the hi-hat and cymbals individually? For the kick drum I want something warm and muffly, it shouldn't really stick out or have a click. Is this mostly in the drum tuning/muffling or are there specific miking techniques involving 1 or 2 mics that I should try?

Sorry, lots to read there, thanks in advance, gents.

[khai]

I dig the drums sound on "Paper tiger" (the first track of Sea change). Very dry. You don't hear the room much.

[Jonk]

I don't really know a whole lot about miking drums, but I've found, miking my own kit, and trying to go for that very sound, that it's really hard in my room. I have a fairly large (high ceilings) pretty live room, and I have to get the mics real close before it starts to resemble that 70's dry drum sound. Not that the big room is the problem. I think it's the liveliness.

I don't try to do it that often really, because I figure I should use the big room I'm so lucky to be able to record in to get some nice ambience on the drums.

A couple suggestions off the top of my head:
Try to deaden the room pretty well, in addition to deadening the drums.
For kick, if you don't want the click, I think a Sennheiser 421 is an awfully good choice for a not-clicky kick drum sound.

[Rush909]

a key to 70's drums is not wacking the drums that hard... if you listen to those records, there is a laid back vibe about the drumming even though they are hammering at them, it's not with as much force and agression...

r.

[audioez]

great advice on the 421.

•Remove the ressonant(front) head on your buddys kick drum.
•You can also take an old snare drum head and cut out a ring that can act as a damper
•keep the snare tension loose, and tune down the drums.

[lpettipoole]

Thanks for the feedback. Would a small room, deadened, be the best? Our drummer never hits hard enough (in my opinion) so perhaps this will be a place where it finally pays off!

While I don't have a 421, I do have an SM7....would that have a similar effect? Should I mic the front head, or perhaps remove it (I doubt I want to mic the batter head, right?) Thanks all.

[J. Kennedy]

It doesn't hurt to have a drummer like Joey Waronker play on your track.

In all seriousness, I've worked with Joey before and he's the softest-hitting drummer of all time. The sound on "Paper Tiger" is a perfect example of how drums sound totally different when you're barely hitting them.

If you did "Paper Tiger," check out Serge Gainsbourg's "Melodie Nelson" album. "Paper Tiger" is a direct bite from "Melodie Nelson" right down to the production aesthetic.

[chrisso]

Yeah, the soft playing is absolutely the key.
You need a small room. You can even screen the drums off as much as possible.
Close mic everything. A couple of good quality overheads will do for cymbals (no need for individuals). You also don't need to go too wild with the damping, but definitely damp the kick and snare.
I agree that a 13" snare and 18" bass drum are not ideal for the 'Sea Change' sound, but not disastrous.
A keystone Ludwig, a Gretsch, a Camco with a Ludwig Supraphonic snare would work a treat however.

[arpodthegreat]

yeah i agree with the 421 on kick. your sm7 should work nice though. try putting some tape on the cymbal to make them ring less. also get moon gel for the drums that should help with the ring but not take away the resonance. the drums are dry but they have a nice full sound to them too. on the kick you may want to try using a fiber skin on the beater and use a pillow that has feathers to mute it. i like feathers because they move. i would put up a mic that's sort of a room/overhead. something like a ribbon, maybe even an sm58. if you go for too dead, you might just get small and thin.

[Tim Abraham]

Try having your drummer put his wallet on the snare before you damp it.

For some more hints on getting that 70's drum sound check out Joe Chiccarelli's techniques in this article:

http://www.eqmag.com/story.asp?secti...storycode=8845

Perhaps a little more ambience in this approach than you'll want, but there are come applicable tricks.

[David Herbert]

Try pulling the kick mic away from the beater. Try some close room mics, less than six feet out. Definitely deaden the room. And yes, the playing style will be the most important element. David

[thejook]

Pillows in the toms is a neat effect too; try it.

[yelhahc]

As well as the light playing, you could also try draping dish towels over the playing surface of the snare drum and toms, like the Beatles used for "Get Back" and "Come Together". Another thing to try are large diaphragm condenser mics on kick, snare, and toms (FET 47, U87, 414 type thing) up nice and close to exaggerate the proximity effect. Compression with slow attack/quicker release might be worth experimenting with too!!!

I really LOVE the sound of Sea Change - Nigel Goderich is a sound hero!!!

[Dr Benway]

I love 'Sea Change'. What a great album Strong songs, fantastic production.. Still on high rotation at my place!! But for a 'live' 70's drum sound. You have to listen to Ray Lamontagnes "Trouble". Recorded 04. Sounds like 74!! Ethan Johns Rocks like mutha @#%!ER !!!

[borau]

Originally Posted by J. Kennedy

If you did "Paper Tiger," check out Serge Gainsbourg's "Melodie Nelson" album. "Paper Tiger" is a direct bite from "Melodie Nelson" right down to the production aesthetic.

You weren't kidding, goddamn!

I checked it out, that is like the coolest thing I've ever heard, thanks!

[dubrichie]

i've found some good things to experiment with are:

heavy-ish / damped skins on the snare and toms, the remo ones with the black dot underneath the skin are great.

the tuning is important, you want kind of a low and fat, expecially the snare. think "woody" and "soft" as opposed to "crack". listen to the beatles / creedence for the snare sound. i find a deeper snare 6" or 6.5" in depth by 14" is best to go for.

also try cable snares, coated with bronze or something. very old-timey.

putting a wallet on the snare can do wonders too. or tape a pack of smokes to it. you want it tuned to give a fat, woody, thick punch and then deaden it with the wallet / smokes. adjust to taste.

if you have tuned your toms to a good tone but they are too resonant try tying jumpers or such around them with the sleeves, the body hanging down off the bottom of the drum. adjust height and tightness around the drrum to taste. this can also help a lot with them resonating with each other and the snare. if the room is causing a lot of this it is sometimes essential.

get the drums sounding as right as possible in the room and then try to get as good a representation of this as you can with overheads / underheads / fok / room mics; you should be able to to get close to the sound your looking for with these in a more natural way than with multiple close mics. this is how it was done in back in the day. good quality ldc and ribbons are essential for this though. glynn johns is the man for this kind of thing. check out his techniques.

regards,

richie.

[dubrichie]

another thing, the Beyer M88 can give great results for this kind of kick drum sound.

[bent sounds]

Originally Posted by J. Kennedy

It doesn't hurt to have a drummer like Joey Waronker play on your track.

In all seriousness, I've worked with Joey before and he's the softest-hitting drummer of all time. The sound on "Paper Tiger" is a perfect example of how drums sound totally different when you're barely hitting them.

If you did "Paper Tiger," check out Serge Gainsbourg's "Melodie Nelson" album. "Paper Tiger" is a direct bite from "Melodie Nelson" right down to the production aesthetic.

Another Beck 'direct bite' is his song 'Beautiful Way' off Midnight Vultures - a very close cousin to The Velvet Underground's b-side 'Countess from Hong Kong'.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who noticed the serge gainsbourg reference :^) how shit (but cool) do the drums sound on that track?! so flabby & dead, but it leaves so much room for the vocal, strings, bass & guitar! what an album!!!

cheerio,
bent

[T. Morgan]

no front head on the kick,
or atleast put the mic insise the kick
thin towels on the toms and snare,
or sometimes a wallet on the snare.
drummer needs to play fairly soft
close mic's

[jomo1234]

here is an mps of the Gainsbourg song if anyone is interested in hearing.....great production!

[jeff deff]

I would try using an Aquarian Super Kick I head on the kick drum with an RE-20 for the mic. For the snare use a wallet or one of those remo sound rings to deaden it and mic it with a small diaphragm condenser, also mic the bottom. On the toms, use C414s top and bottom. For the cymbals use ribbon mics close to the crash and ride. I played on a record where we went for the 70's drum sound and we nailed it using this setup. Also, it's important you are in a very dead room or use some gobos.

[u b k]

hey now, slow down, and listen to the tom fill that opens up paper tiger: those drums are not dead, not even close. they are resonant, open, unmuffled, and singing, and tuned l-o-w.

there's a neutrality to the space around them, but it's not necessarily a small dead space because small dead spaces often have a low-mid buildup that i don't hear on this track. i'd try a larger room and create a neutral drum zone with carpeted gobos and packing blankets. overheads close by, close mic on everything but use the overheads as the primary source.

and like everyone else has said, play dead soft.

lastly, the biggest key to the drum sound in this tune, and any tune for that matter, is the arrangement of everything else. that first verse is, what, drums, soft bass, and voice? get the sound imprinted on the brain and when the tune gets denser the listener will still hear the bigger sounds from memory.


gregoire
del ubik

[severe]

I've always thought that Beck was influenced, a lot, by Gordon Lightfoot on Sea Change. There are melodies, production qualities, and instrumentation, including vocals, that are very similar on a few tracks. Good record.


Anyone else hear it?

[Ruairi]

Originally Posted by u b i k

hey now, slow down, and listen to the tom fill that opens up paper tiger: those drums are not dead, not even close. they are resonant, open, unmuffled, and singing, and tuned l-o-w.

there's a neutrality to the space around them, but it's not necessarily a small dead space because small dead spaces often have a low-mid buildup that i don't hear on this track. i'd try a larger room and create a neutral drum zone with carpeted gobos and packing blankets. overheads close by, close mic on everything but use the overheads as the primary source.

and like everyone else has said, play dead soft.

lastly, the biggest key to the drum sound in this tune, and any tune for that matter, is the arrangement of everything else. that first verse is, what, drums, soft bass, and voice? get the sound imprinted on the brain and when the tune gets denser the listener will still hear the bigger sounds from memory.


gregoire
del ubik

Gregoire is on the money here. A small space could sound boxy or have a low mid buildup. I would chase this sound in a larger room using gobos. Don't use too many mics.

I've never really tried copying that tom sound but I did get an almost knock off of the Sea Change kick and snare vibe. I recorded in a medium sized room (my old control room) that was fairly well treated. I used only 2 mics, a 441 on the kick and a 414 on the snare/hats. The kick was tuned low, no front skin and the mic was away from the beater. The snare was tuned low, played lightly (the hats even lighter) and had a dish towel thrown over. It sounded great for the vibe we wanted. The kit was a crappy export and I am a lame drummer but I kept it simple and it worked well.

I also recently recorded a drummer using a fibre skin on his snare and it sounded great for that dull, leathery thud,

best of luck,
Ruairi

[borau]

Originally Posted by jomo1234

here is an mps of the Gainsbourg song if anyone is interested in hearing.....great production!

Yeah, you can here traces there too, but the real Sea Change song is

CARGO CULTE from that record (Historie de Melody Nelson)

got an MP3?

anyway the Musicstore link is http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...442&i=81888539

[OVERNIGHT]

I have to say that I love that this record is getting some props now. It seemed like it was ignored when it came out and I loved it so much. This is like the third time I've seen it refered to in the last couple of weeks. My wife hated it when it came out. She loves it now. Slow climber I guess. I drove across country in January of 04, from L.A. to New York alone and listened to this record a good 8 or 10 times. 'Lost Cause' is easily on my top 10 all time list, if I had such a thing. I love a good weeper. It's Beck's Nebraska.

[JPF]

thnx for posting that mp3 !cool stuff. i wouldn't describe those drums as dead at all...i found Sea Change to remind me a lot of Neil Young's nashville albums like Harvest w/ Kenny Buttery,really great laid back grooves and Neil would give him stink eye when he did a fill...Karl Himmel also had that killer laid back thing on Comes a Time and JJ Cale's Naturally..for me tuning the drums w/ good heads w/ wallet on snare and small pillow in the kick , no front head

[gwazda]

check this out...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/justinm...n/set-1477803/
Beck's bassist sitting at the drums during the Sea Change sessions. Not the best shot, but interesting nonetheless.

[Chrisc_o]

I have recently discovered this album, and this thread.

I love the album, the vibe, the songwriting, Beck's tone of voice and emotion, it is all a big breath of fresh air.

That being said, there are some serious issues. From the first listen, the parallels were forever drawn in my mind. Someone here mentioned the Harvest sound, which I caught also. The whole thing sounds like a cross between harvest and Kid A.

Beautiful, spacious, love the strings and arrangements in general, but just a little too unoriginal overall. A valid artistic achievement; the first 5 listens were bliss, but further listens left me wanting a bit more.

Isolated example: the transition into the second chorus in "Paper Tiger" just sounds so blah. Almost like it was a neglected moment that no one paid any attention to, yet, as a build into a chorus it just screams for some kind of a punch, but nothing. It almost drops for half a measure before the strings decide that they should have come in a second ago.

It just needs a teensy bit of bite from time to time.

Maybe its just me. I am still lietening, though!


As for the drums, close mics for sure, but I would leave the reso head on the kick, just have one without a hole, and keep the mic a good 12" back.

Sorry for the rant-ish post

[Tubthumper]

Originally Posted by JPF

thnx for posting that mp3 !cool stuff. i wouldn't describe those drums as dead at all...i found Sea Change to remind me a lot of Neil Young's nashville albums like Harvest w/ Kenny Buttery,really great laid back grooves and Neil would give him stink eye when he did a fill...Karl Himmel also had that killer laid back thing on Comes a Time and JJ Cale's Naturally..for me tuning the drums w/ good heads w/ wallet on snare and small pillow in the kick , no front head

I'm with you on that one JPF. The first time I put on Sea Change.... the intro to Golden Age kicks in..... oh my, straight back to the mid-Seventies at the beach, listening to Harvest. Reefers mandatory.